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I guess it’s perhaps fair to call the Church’s article “spin,” but the Church is hardly an objective, disinterested commentator. I would expect no less than the Church presenting its views and interpretation of the historical record. I don’t think I’ve read anything on early Church history that wasn’t “spun.” You don’t think Fawn Brodie, Richard Bushman, Grant Palmer or Truman Madsen have a bias one way or another? Does anyone think it’s even remotely possible for the Church to say “You know what, turns out we’ve been wrong all these years; looks like Joseph probably didnt’ actually see God.”? Of course not, nor do I even want them to. I don’t want the Church to agree with me — I want it to concede that it’s okay for me to think and beleive what I do, and still remain a fully-credentialed member of the Church. To me, this isn’t huge because of the contents of the Church’s explanation. It is huge because of the underlying premise this dicussion represents — that there are multiple recountings of the FV, that they don’t necessarily agree on a number of issues, and that the Church is making the original documents available for research and perusal.
So, do I agree with the Church’s spin on this? No, I don’t. Am I at least grateful that they’ve taken this step? Yes, I am.
May, if you’re comfortable telling me, what state are you moving out of? Depending on what state you’re currently resident in, there may be standard landlord-tenant legislation that would be in your favor. One fact to clarify in this: the for-profit side of the Church’s holdings are not used to subsidize humanitarian assistance directly. In other words, the beef that comes off the large cattle operations of Ranch Management Corp. such as Deseret Land and Livestock does not go into Church distribution channels for bishop’s storehouses or other humanitarian needs. It is sold on the beef market for profit. The food products that go into the Church’s distribution network come from the old remnants of the Stake Farms. Those farms were bought and run from Tithing and humanitarian funds. They are not run for profit, but rather for humanitarian uses in Church canaries, packing plants, etc. I’m not directly in the Ag business, but I’ve got several good friends who have worked on both the for-profit Ranch Management Corp and Farm Management Corp side, as well as the humanitarian side. They are wholly and completely separate. Having said all that, the new half-billion dollar ranch and farm will likely not contribute a red cent to humanitarian causes, unless the Church is folding the profits from it into those uses. But of course, we don’t know whether they do or whether they don’t. As SD mentioned early in the thread, my ward’s total annual budget is less than 40% of what I alone contributed in tithing last year, and I’m just an average tithe payer in my ward. I’d like to know a bit about how all that operates.
Very interesting Ray. Not sure it’ll help the Apologists at all, though. First, it’s 24,000 years old. Noah’s flood hadn’t even happened yet! 
Heber, that was very moving. The most personal, intimate thing I’ve read in the Boggernacle in a long time. Thanks. I’m afraid I don’t have any good advice for you other than what’s already been said and what you suggested yourself — set firm boundaries with the bishopric! Let them know you you’re not interested in callings right now, and that in the future you’d appreciate a heads-up phone call before they stop by (as an aside, I can’t believe how common this is in the Church – where are people’s manners?!?). The angst you’ve descrived is why I’ll never move back to Utah. I’m a Davis County boy, born and raised. I go back occassionally, and I love it for the first few days. I love the mountains, the seasons, the cost of living, the relively cheap land and housing, the recreational opportunities, and all my friends and family. After about Day Three, though, little things start bugging me, and by the end of the week I can’t wait to get the h@ll out of there. I’ll enjoy going back for the rest of my life, but I’ll never live there again. The Church is just so much better in areas where it’s a tiny minority, in my experience.
Perhaps a bit of levity to break the tension? My dad had been away from the Church for over ten years. During that time, he’d developed a taste for the four major categories of banned substances by the WoW; his language was profane, his temper was quick, and he enjoyed the odd bawdy joke. When he decided to come back to Church he gave up most of his vices and marched into the chapel with the family. In those days the bishopric greeted the congregation as we filed in for SM. My dad walked right up the bishop, shook his hand and said “Bishop, I hope the fire insurance is up to date on this building, because lightening may strike it – I’m coming back to Church!” Old-Timer wrote:Honestly, SD, if we can go from circumcision to baptism as the marker of God’s covenant people . . .
That may be the most epic line in the history of the internet! (Okay, maybe that’s a bit of hyperbole)
There are many, many reasons I prefer the NT gospel to the OT gospel. Right up near the top of the list is the switch from cutting off the foreskin (ouch!) to taking a bath (aaahhh). Great analogy, Ray!
Welcome, Apollyon. Similar experiences to what you describe are the reasons I’m staying LDS. I went through a period of about 12 months where my Sunday attendance became almost unbearable. One Saturday I was attending the baptism of the daughter of a friend in the ward, sitting towards the back listening to the rambling “welcome to the Church” remarks of a bishopric member after the confirmation, when WHAM!, the spirit hit me like a ton of bricks. At first I couldn’t really believe what I was feeling, but sure enough, there it was. Since then, I’ve taken the attitude that for me, church is nothing more and nothing less than an opportunity to feel the spirit. It doesn’t happen every Sunday, or even very often, but it happens often enough to keep me going back. I stopped caring that someone scolds my son for taking the bread with his left hand, that Sister [last name removed] is spouting off again about the New Jerusalem, or that the visiting high councilor has obviously not prepared his remarks beforehand. If what I’m experiencing in Sac mtg isn’t uplifting, I read something on my iPad that is. Hope you’re able to find a little nest here – some very good folks hang out here.
:thumbup: I used to translate / interpret General Conference into my mission language way back in the day. We usually receieved the talks several days in advance for a member of the Seventy, two days in advance for an apostle, and just the day before or even day of for a First Presidency member. We would translate the talk, and then read it along with the speaker as they presented their address. We had to pay very close attention, though, becuase they frequently didn’t stick to the script word for word. If it seemed like Elder Haight was just winging it in his conference talks towards the end, you’d be right; his eyesight was so bad he couldn’t read the teleprompter. Having said all that, it didn’t surprise me in the least that President Monson’s written talk was changed from what his actual verbal address; it has happened all the time. I’ll agree that’s a fairly significant difference, but it’s not surprising. And I agree with cwald – that’s the kind of change I can get behind – makes it better, no?
bridget_night wrote:On Unchanging Marriage Doctrine:
“God has given us a revelation in regard to marriage. I did not make it. He has told us certain things pertaining to this matter, and they would like us to tone that principle down and change it and make it applicable to the views of the day. This we cannot do; nor can we interfere with any of the commands of God to meet the persuasions or behests of men. I cannot do it, and will not do it.”
D̶a̶l̶l̶i̶n̶ ̶H̶ ̶O̶a̶k̶s̶,̶ ̶G̶e̶n̶e̶r̶a̶l̶ ̶C̶o̶n̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶c̶e̶,̶ ̶S̶u̶n̶d̶a̶y̶ ̶O̶c̶t̶o̶b̶e̶r̶ ̶6̶,̶ ̶2̶0̶1̶3̶ OOPS, I mean
John Taylor – Journal of Discourses, Vol. 25, pp. 309-310
Brigham Young: “Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives… I promise that you will be damned,” (Deseret News, Nov. 14, 1855).
Brigham Young: “Suppose this church should give up this holy order of marriage, then would the devil and all who are in league with him against the cause of God rejoice that they had prevailed upon the saints to refuse to obey one of the revelations and commandments of God to them,” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 239).
I have many TBM family and friends who believe everything the prophet and GA’s say in General Conference. When I was growing up, the church taught to get your own personal revelation about what was said in GC and even when a new prophet was put in to get your own confirmation. I don’t hear that so much anymore. From Brother Oaks talk about marriage being only between one man and one woman and will never change, it made me wonder how these TBMormons would respond if polygamy became legal, and the present polygamy families joined the church, and the prophet said it was to be re-established in the church? Maybe this has already been talked about, but unless we can get our own personal revelation about what our leaders say, we are just like followers in a cult. Apparently, the church is saying that it will not accept gay married couples into the church even if it is legal.
I sometimes wonder if the Church’s seemingly single-minded focus on sexual relationships is an over-compensation for the history of polygamy and a rebuttal to the stinging criticism the Church faced for decades over the sexual peccadillos of our founders. As we’ve noted here in other threads, there is often no zealot quite so committed as the convert, and the Church may be a more recent convert to the whole one-man-one-woman thing, but they’ve taken to it with a flourish.
Mate, your situation is one that’s played out thousands of times in the Church. My own DW is a convert to the Church at roughly age 27; I’m a life-long member. Before we married, I had to come to terms with the same issue you’re facing. I won’t pretend that you and I are in exactly the same boat, because everyone’s unique. I will say, though, that for us it wasn’t an issue then and has never been throughout our 10 year marriage. That being said, this is something internal to you. If she’s truly repented and been forgiven, she’s square with God; and if that’s the case, shouldn’t she be square with you? Good luck, mate.
My response, albeit late, is going to go beyond just the Elder Evans quote to my own experience in my own ward and stake. On multiple occasions, in multiple forums, members of my ward and stake leadership have described the age change as “revelation,” “doctrine” and an example of “the Lord hastening His work” (their words, not my interpretation). That leads me to believe that they don’t view this change as a simple policy announcement, but more like a revelation. So with due respect to Ray, I do think a decent number of Mormons would believe that President Monson took this to the SL temple and had a chat with The Lord about it. If this is an example of The Lord hastening His work, then The Lord must have directed it through his servant, the prophet. And Dark Jedi, I agree – this is how policies and principles like the WoW, blacks and the priesthood, women praying in church, only partaking of the sacrament with your right hand, no TV on Sunday, white shirts, no tattoos and multiple earrings become The Mind and Will of The Lord. We do this to ourselves – the prophet makes a statement that’s not intended to be doctrine, but we take it, deify it, wrap it in mystery, tie it to the temple, and abracadabra! Doctrine!
SilentDawning wrote:Also, it’s kind of nice being in a Ward where you don’t live. You can attend, enjoy the services (if you find them enjoyable) and then leave. The Bishop and the Ward CAN’T give you calling — so it’s Church-sanctioned benchwarming. While I am an advocate of pulling your own weight, it’s nice sometimes to have a break.
^^^This! Of all the sage advice SD has given here, and there are many examples, this is the best. I think going to a ward that’s not your own is a great way to StayLDS. Give it a try – it’s awesome.
:clap:
