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I just wanted to say I read your post, loved it and totally agree with you! Breast cancer has deeply affected many of my friends and family members, too.
I also liked the book The Shack and it deals with God, or Papa as character in the novel calls Him, coming in the form of a black woman. I loved how the author explains this, why God came in this form to Mack. It didn’t go over too well, in our LDS book club as one might expect, they kind of got caught up in this. You might like the book. This might be just what you are looking for. i do think many of the church’s teachings are fear based, but the the gospel’s message is one of hope and love….sometimes we have to go elsewhere to get the message of Christ because the fear based thinking in the church is so strong or tends to dominate…that has been my experience. So in answer to your question, I would have to say yes; but it is not integral to the message of Christ or the good news. I think of the church and the gospel as two different things, I don’t think they are one in the same. Valoel wrote:By staying, and being a part of it, I think in a small way I will be a part of change. I don’t really have expectations or time tables. I hope that by staying, and encouraging other wonderful “misfits” like me to stay (that I love), we will become an influence on the overall direction.
My personal approach is to *BE* the person I wish others would be. Do I wish members were more compassionate, understanding and accepting of different views? Then I will be compassionate, understanding and accepting of views that are different than mine (which might be traditional ones), *AND* an active part of the community — an agent of change by example, not by proclamation.
QFT! I may not be attend as often as you, but I agree with you here and thanks for being compassionate towards me. Gandhi once said, we must become the change we seek.
I also like this essay as in it pertains to the LDS church, specifically. I really appreciate you posting these, they were such a delight to read. I will be praying for Darius, so sorry to hear that he is ill with cancer. I highly respect this man. He is amazing! spacious maze asked: Quote:Are the books of Moses and Abraham being taught as truth? Are they included in lessons, missionary discussions, mormon views? Mentioned or taught at all? Or has the church sidelined and watered-down the importance of the Pearl of Great Price entirely, eventually leaving it behind? And do you believe it as true and divinely wrought as the Bible and Book of Mormon?
I think that both they are taught and yet as the same time dismissed at times. Bit and pieces are in lessons and in the LDS culture for sure, but they are not in missionary discussions or they certainly were not in mine, I had no real idea or heard of the PofGP when I was taught some 30 years ago. Based on what Pres.Hinckley said to Larry King, it does some of the PoGP is now sidelined somewhat, except much of the book of moses is the basis for and used in the temple endowment. Pres.Hinckley seemed to ashamed to admit that theosis was definitely part of the church’s teachings at one point and really still is. It is not in scripture, so much but was preached by JS, I already answered at least the BofA part, I certainly cannot not trust or put it on the same level as the other two.
[moderated: off topic – Valoel]
The only insights I have was already shared, Valoel. My faith is alway evolving. I put the conflict with other standard works on my proverbial shelf for years and I do believe that the BofM are clearly monotheistic as evidenced by all the scriptures I shared, I do think like someone mentioned the whole Book of Abraham thing is a disaster and i also think that the bible is/or teaches a monotheistic view of God. The OT does talk about polytheism in the many stories because Israel often lost track of who God was and started to worship many gods, but all of these were condemned and were referred to by the Hebrew prophets as false deities such as Baal and others, ones worshiped for agriculture or fertility, etc. The only legit reference I know of that questions that there might be more than one God or a divine council of Gods is in Psalm 82 and I have an explanation for that I have researched out. Edited for clarity.
According to Hebrews 1:1-2, we no longer need prophets like in the Old Testament times, as we now have Christ Jesus…..God speaks to us by His son, now, so it appears that we no longer need prophets like is often quoted from Amos 3:7. That being said, I think the President or First Presidency of the church can lead us in many inspired ways, such as the Family Proclamation or other documents and believe I can sustain them as such, but personally I don’t see any of these men as prophet like in OT times. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6418671664626483056 At least two of the researchers/scholars are LDS, so both Mormon and Non- Mormon scholars agree on the papryi not being what many members led to believe it is.
The LDS scholars are Edward H. Ashment and Stan Larson.
My questions has always been, Why does the BofM’s concept of God agrees with the Bible on the doctrine of God, yet conflicts with what Joseph said in later years and what was revealed in the Book of Abraham, which was supposed to be the most ancient scripture?Someone mentioned at an LDS book club that I hosted, in which we discussed, The Shack, that they felt like the author messed with doctrine; but to be fully honest, as Latter-Day Saints, we must recognize the changes and inconsistencies in Joseph’s doctrinal teachings, by looking carefully at what he either translated, received in modern day or what he preached. None of us actually know the true nature or all the mysteries of God, our only sources are from what we can read and take as scripture, and most of have taken the BofM as such. God did teach us to use our minds and reason things out. He even reasons with us, on our level at times, so we may understand. See Isaiah 1:18 and D&C 50:10-12. With that in mind, I encourage you to read on… if you are interested as I have included some highlights from an article that I read.
Mormon author Boyd Kirkland does not hesitate to label the doctrine of Deity in the Book of Mormon as ”monotheism” (one God). For example, in Alma 11:26-28 we read:
And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God. And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No.Taken at face value, this passage clearly teaches monotheism.
The “Testimony of the Three Witnesses” that appears in the Preface to the Book of Mormon supports such a monotheistic interpretation. It concludes with the statement,
“And honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.”The belief that there is only one God — anywhere in this, or any other, universe — agrees with the teaching of the Bible. There are 27 biblical passages the explicitly state that there is only one God. One of these passages, Isaiah 44:6,8, states:
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer, the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any..A number of passages in the Book of Mormon present Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ as the same Person. Theologians call this modalism, because Father and Son are understood, not as distinct persons, but merely as different modes in which the one God has manifested Himself at different times. Mosiah 15:1-3 presents such a modalistic view of the Father and Son:
And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son — The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and the Son.Similarly, Mosiah 16:15 declares that Jesus is the Father: “Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father.” A modal view of Father and Son is also evident in Ether chapters 3:14: “Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son” (see also, Ether 4:7,12; Helaman 14:12).
Another historical reason for believing that Joseph Smith originally believed in only one God (and held a modalistic view of Jesus and the Father), is that his original First Vision story reflects such a view. Over the last thirty years LDS scholars have discovered that Joseph gave several different accounts of his First Vision, and that the earliest accounts are significantly different than the version in the Pearl of Great Price. The differences in these successive first vision accounts reflect an attempt to keep pace with changes in Joseph’s doctrine of Deity.
LDS historian Dean C. Jessee has documented, the earliest known First Vision account, a document from 1831-32 in Joseph’s own handwriting, describes the appearance of only a single divine personage, Jesus Christ. This is highly significant because it accords with the Book of Mormon’s modal monotheism, described above. It is understandable that when Joseph latter abandoned monotheism and began to teach the plurality of Gods, he would change his original First Vision story to make it consistent with the teaching that Father and Son are separate Gods
The movement from monotheism to the plurality of Gods described in the article was based on viewing the various LDS scriptures and teachings in the order they came forth from Joseph Smith. However, since parts are supposed to be restored, ancient revelation (Book of Abraham, Book of Moses, and Book of Mormon), it is also necessary to consider how the doctrine of Deity is presented in these scriptures when they are viewed in the chronological order in which they were anciently given (with the Lectures on Faith, Doctrine and Covenants, and Joseph’s famous sermon on the plurality of Gods, the “King Follett Discourse,” coming last, since they were first given in Joseph’s day). Since God cannot lie or contradict Himself, later revelation should be consistent with and not contradict what came earlier.
Viewed from this perspective, however, a perplexing pattern emerges, We are asked to believe that after revealing the doctrine of the plurality of Gods in Abraham’s time (2,000 B.C.), Heavenly Father later sent prophets beginning with Moses (1400/1300 B.C.) and through the end of the Book of Mormon period (A.D. 400) who taught monotheism, only to have Joseph Smith revert back to teaching the plurality of Gods in the nineteenth century.
Boyd Kirkland, “The Development of the Mormon Doctrine of God,” Line Upon Line: Essays on Mormon Doctrine (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1989), pp. 35-36.
See Dean C. Jessee, “The Early Accounts of Joseph Smith’s First Vision,” BYU Studies, Vol. IX, No. 3 (Spring 1969), pp. 275-294 and, by the same author, “How Lovely Was the Morning,” in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol. VI, No. 1 (Spring 1971), pp. 85-88; also Paul R. Cheesman, “An Analysis of the Accounts Relating Joseph Smith’s Early Visions,” M.A. thesis, Brigham Young University, 1965, Appendix D.
This has been such a good thread, one that I have enjoyed reading. We all have times when we feel abandoned or forsaken by God the Father, even Christ did, but the truth is He never leaves us… we are just looking through our knothole of pain during those times, so our perspective is super limited. We must fully learn to trust the Father, and the Savior led the way in that, but even He had that moment. Heber and Swim, you have summed it all up well. Alexaia, hope things are looking up and you have eased up on yourself and noticed the effects of the spirit more in your life lately as well. Heber, Just want to say I really like your posts, especially some of your latest comments on the Gift of the Holy Ghost thread, I think the gospel is very simple and it is almost as simple as that story. Wanted to share something. [Moderated: No long sermons please, thanks. -Valoel]
So Heber it is really simple, as Jesus told us that the greatest commandments are to Love God and Love One Another! Be kind and loving, serve each other with compassion like you do and you are headed in the right direction! When we love others with true compassion, we are showing other’s God’s love!
