[latterdaytemplar]

Roy wrote:

Thank you for sharing your experience Latterdaytemplar. I think it shows in a very personal way that life can get better if we only hang on.

Thank you for the kind, thoughtful words, Roy.

[latterdaytemplar]

Despite putting on a positive face for my family, fellow missionaries, and investigators, I once was at a suicidal point on my mission. I felt that I was a disappointment to God for not doing well enough as a missionary. This was a result putting up with ZL bullies frequently for months on end; one of them even went so far as to call me repeatedly a piece of “una basura” (a piece of garbage) and “una porquería” (this doesn’t really translate, but a “why-ness”; or in other words, “why do you even exist?”). He should not have been a ZL.

The night that I planned to go, my DL called. He was a great friend and said exactly what I needed to hear to put off my plans for that night. He then came over and we went on splits. I told him what I had been planning for that night. I suspect that he told the mission president, because at the end of that transfer I was sent to another area to be paired with a very easy-going companion.

My DL saved my life that night.

Although I am sorry to hear that your grandson came to that point, I am glad to hear that he is doing well and is recovering. I recommend letting him know that you’re glad that he’s around and specifically reminding him that you love him, because I’m here to tell you that the words “I love you” can be life-changing and life-saving.

[latterdaytemplar]

Roy wrote:

Many years ago, my family and I were on a road trip and listening to some church talks that we had recorded on cassette. The speaker talked with pride about the fact that he had never changed a diaper for his many children. He justified this by imagining that in the celestial kingdom, diaper changing will be exclusively the job of the servant class and he was practicing for a much more exalted station.

I honestly would never have imagined someone saying this, but it unfortunately does not surprise me.

Had I been confronted with such a statement, I would like to think that I would pull him aside in private and say something like the following:

Quote:

The most exalted station is that of the Son of God, who was and is the Greatest Servant of all. We are taught that, by being in the service of our neighbor, we are only in the service of our God. So long as one is not willing to be a part of the servant class, one will always feel wholly out-of-place in the Celestial Kingdom, to the point where one may not feel comfortable remaining there.

As your friend and brother in Christ, I want to see you in the Celestial Kingdom. For that reason, I invite you to repent of this pride that you have of not serving your children, which, in this case, includes apologizing to your wife for belittling the Christlike service that she rendered alone to your children, thanking her for being willing to do so, and thanking her for her Christlike example.

[latterdaytemplar]

Roy wrote:

This is of course very sad. Vandalism does not solve anything. I mean that for every organization.

Agreed.

[latterdaytemplar]

My wife and I started reading The Hebrew Bible: A Translation with Commentary by Robert Alter during our Come, Follow Me studies. Alter’s commentary sheds light both on the literary aspects of the Bible as well as on cultural/linguistic aspects. He will also usually provide explanations as to why his translations differ from those found in other versions (KJV, etc.).

Another Bible that I like to use (even though it is KJV just like the Church’s Bibles) is my Masonic Heirloom Bible (which is also a red-letter Bible, just as yours is) since it has notes in the back that one would not find in the Church’s study helps.

[latterdaytemplar]

Welcome to the group, Matt. I hope that this forum provides what you’re looking for.

[latterdaytemplar]

It is possible that the Tigris and the Euphrates known today were named after the ones listed in Genesis.

On the other hand, the account of the Creation in Genesis reflects a flat-earth position, which most of us know is incorrect. Moses may well have written that account insofar as his understanding of it reached, and it may have been reliant on incorrect views of other Hebrews from whom he learned after his time as Egyptian royalty.

Given that Moses’s understanding of world geography as reflected in the Creation account contradicts what we know now, I think that this also leaves room for his understanding of today’s Tigris and Euphrates rivers correlating with Eden to be incorrect as well.

[latterdaytemplar]

Welcome to the forum! 🙂

[latterdaytemplar]

Roy wrote:

Thank you answering all my questions. I think I have a pretty good idea how a believing latter day saint can also be a Freemason and separate out each of them internally!

My pleasure!

[latterdaytemplar]

On Own Now wrote:

One thing I wonder about is that D&C76, that you referenced, does not use the term “Degrees of Glory”… rather, it talks about the “Glory of the Telestial” and the “Telestial World”, etc.

Sure enough, you are right. It looks like the term degree was not used in any canonized scripture to refer to the Kingdoms of Heaven until D&C 131 was received in May 1843, over a year after Joseph became a Mason. I also cannot find any primary sources of Joseph using the term degree outside of the Church’s doctrinal canon prior to his Masonic initiation.

After he became a Mason, he likely would have heard the term degree far more often after being made a Mason than before; it’s possible, then, that, being more accustomed to this term, he decided to use it to refer to the different Kingdoms of Heaven.

SamBee wrote:

Actually, come to think of it, were the Three Degrees – Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial influenced by Masonry as well?

In the context of the term degree being used, it appears that you may have been right. I lounge corrected. 🙂

However, the concept itself of the different levels or Kingdoms of Heaven does not come from Masonry.

[latterdaytemplar]

SamBee wrote:

Actually, come to think of it, were the Three Degrees – Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial influenced by Masonry as well?

No. Joseph received revelations concerning the three degrees of glory as early as February 1832, just a little over a decade before he became a Mason.

In addition, Freemasonry does not have a theology and therefore does not teach anything regarding the nature of Heaven.

[latterdaytemplar]

nibbler wrote:

My frame of reference could be off-base but I find it interesting how the Book of Mormon includes some themes that run parallel to the concerns of the Anti-Masonic Party; a party formed shortly after the 1826 disappearance of William Morgan from a town about 50 miles from Palmyra. Then just 12 years after the publication of the Book of Mormon Joseph founds a Freemason lodge in Nauvoo.

That’s quite a turnaround.

The Lodge in Nauvoo was actually chartered/founded by Grand Master Abraham Jonas of the Grand Lodge AF&AM of Illinois. Joseph was not one of the petitioners who asked to have a Lodge in Nauvoo; those recorded to have petitioned the Grand Lodge to allow Nauvoo to have a lodge were:

[list]

[latterdaytemplar]

Roy wrote:

Would you speculate that JS had received the endowment “principles that we knew of when first presented with the Plan of Salvation in pre-mortality ” some time prior to becoming associated with masonry and was searching for a vehicle/teaching method? Or could experiencing the masonic ceremony have been the catalyst for receiving revelation on those endowment principles more or less at the same time? (I have observed what I believe to be a pattern of JS taking inspiration from his environment and using that as a launch point to further revelation) We do have a number of D&C scriptures that talk about a coming endowment of power but I am not sure if JS knew what exactly that would entail.

My speculation is more in-line with the first option: that of Joseph having received most or all of the principles of the endowment prior to becoming associated with Masonry; perhaps a better way to word my position would be that he received all of those principles independent of his participation in Masonry, as he may have received the last bit sometime after his Masonic initiation. I’m not sure exactly whether he was actively searching for a vehicle/teaching method or whether it just clicked for him when he was initiated (in the lodge) that such would be the best way to teach.

That stated, I acknowledge that I could easily be wrong; Masonry could have indeed somehow been a catalyst for revelation. For me in particular, it is somewhat difficult to wrap my mind around that, but my inability to understand does not equate to impossibility for it to have occurred that way.

Roy wrote:

Fascinating! I had not heard of the Promethean Adam theory. That is a very handy integration of creationism and the genesis narrative with the theory of evolution.

Yes, I was quite impressed when I first came across it. Unfortunately, I don’t quite do it justice when explaining it orally, which naturally results in people looking at me like I’m some kind of nutcase lol

Roy wrote:

I had heard a theory that JS was attempting to signal a masonic sign of distress in the moments right before the martyrdom. Had you heard of this?

I have heard this; the evidence supporting it is somewhat circumstantial. There is no primary or authoritative account indicating that he was making any specific sign. His last words that we know of were “O Lord, my God,” according to D&C 135:1. These words in and of themselves do not constitute the words that would accompany such a sign. In addition, the mob that martyred him and Hyrum were covered in blackface; this combined with the facts that bullets were flying every which way and that they had barricaded themselves into the upper chambers of the jail for most of the encounter leads me to believe that Joseph would not have had the opportunity to study which disguised faces he knew or didn’t know, and therefore would not have recognized any Masons among the mob. It is also unproven that any Masons took part in the martyrdom.

On the other hand, it’s not necessarily needed for him to have recognized anybody before making such a sign or before reciting such words for aid from Masons; he could very well have attempted to give the Masonic sign of distress or to recite the words accompanying it before he died. John Taylor and Heber C. Kimball certainly thought that this was what Joseph was trying to do.

I personally believe that he was starting to pray, having already been shot; but that is nothing more than my own subjective opinion.

Roy wrote:

I also recently was reading about LDS prayer circles in the early Utah period. There were prayer circles that met as a specific church governing body (stake high council) but then there were also others that were not dependent on church callings or priesthood office. For this second group of prayer circle, new members (males only) would need to be invited/sponsored by an existing member. This reminds me somewhat of joining a group such as a masonic lodge. These prayer circle groups were discontinued after the church grew to such a point that fewer and fewer members could realistically be a member of these groups – making it more and more exclusionary. Do you have any thoughts on these early Utah prayer groups and any similarities to Freemasons?

I was not aware of this and it intrigues me, so I appreciate you teaching me something new here. However, right off the bat I think that the concept of the prayer circle was more likely adopted from Protestant practices rather than Masonic ones. However, I’ll have to read more on the subject.

Roy wrote:

I believe that there is pretty good support to believe that JS believed that the masonic ceremony went back to the days of Solomon. Do you have any concerns with JS believing that something that later turned out to be wrong? Why or why not?

I personally do not have any concerns. I see this as Joseph having had and expressed his opinions, but nothing more. His thoughts on Masonry being literally descended from the times of King Solomon’s Temple were never canonized as doctrine in the Church; had this been otherwise, then I might have had concerns.

That stated, although Freemasonry historically only traces back to 1598 Edinburgh, Scotland and likely came from medieval stonemason guilds that started to lose business as gothic architecture went out of style (therefore transitioning to philosophy and charging people of other professions for the honor/privilege of being given high honorary status in their guilds), it is still possible (however incredibly improbable) that it does literally descend from King Solomon’s Temple.

Even if Masonry does literally descend from King Solomon’s Temple, however, we know that: [list]

the content of the temple endowment wholly differs from those of the degrees of Masonry.

[/list] [list]

the temple endowment was “hid from before the foundation of the world” before it was revealed to Joseph, and therefore could not have been practiced in King Solomon’s Temple anyway.

[/list]

Excellent questions. Please don’t hesitate if you have any others.

[latterdaytemplar]

nibbler wrote:

At roughly the 11:50 mark in the video you mention that one of the purposes of masonry/tokens is to measure our integrity and ability to keep a secret. I remember arriving at a similar conclusion years ago, the supporting scripture in my mind was:

Luke 16:10 wrote:

He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

In other words, if I could do something as simple as keep a secret then that was my mustard seed of faith I needed to tackle larger challenges.

On the other hand, humans using secrets to test the loyalty of other humans can be a form of grooming and can lead to abuse.

Luke 12:3 wrote:

Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

In Masonry, fortunately, any and all of one’s respective duties to God, family, neighbor, country, or self come first; in fact, it would be considered unmasonic conduct to put Masonry before any of those things.

Insofar as the Church is concerned, however, such covenants are made with God and not with man.

nibbler wrote:

Maybe it’s like with anything, a tool can be used for good or bad, but I do wonder out loud whether god would need to test my integrity. I’d probably answer that any test of my integrity is more for my benefit than god’s benefit, but I also wonder whether there are better ways of measuring integrity than one’s ability to keep a secret.

I agree that anything can be used for good or for bad; it all depends on intent. I also agree that the need for our integrity is not for God, but rather for us as His children. Frankly, I’m sure that there are better ways to measure integrity; for example, magnifying our callings, doing good works, staying faithful, and so on. However, I don’t see these as potential replacements as tests of integrity, but rather as additional concepts added; when all are taken together, one’s integrity would show to be pretty strong, no?

nibbler wrote:

I guess it depends on the secret, whether the secret is mundane (my favorite color is _____) or whether it’s an attempt to hide behavior.

That’s a good thought and I completely agree.

[latterdaytemplar]

SamBee wrote:

Many Masons used to believe their ceremonies went back to Solomon’s temple.

Very true; most Masons in Joseph Smith’s day certainly believed this to be the case. Nowadays, that hypothesis is only held by a minority of Masons.

SamBee wrote:

As for occult accusations with Masonry, they aren’t without some merit. Occult means something done in secret and most Masonic ceremonies are held behind closed doors.

Also true, although “occult” in its literal, original sense is more about something being hidden rather than secret. Although we in Masonry certainly have private meetings, they are not secret; after all, we publish our meeting times/places on public-accessible websites and social media; before, they were commonly published in phone books and newspapers.

SamBee wrote:

I do not think Masons are Luciferians – I don’t know about the 33° etc – at least at the lower levels.

Nothing in Freemasonry nor in any of its appendant/concordant bodies (for example, the Scottish Rite, which offers 4°-33° that you mentioned) has to do with Luciferianism/Satanism. Those accusations trace back to the Taxil Hoax.

SamBee wrote:

The secretiveness in Mormonism and Masonry has allowed opponents to spin all kinds of stories.

Yes, gossip/rumor of the worst ideas do tend to be circulated when any religious or fraternal group does anything in private; for some reason, however, this does not apply to families or to most private businesses.

SamBee wrote:

One Masonic cliché I can’t stand is, “We’re a society of secrets, not a secret society.”

I personally agree with you here, especially given that, according to the definition provided by Merriam-Webster, Freemasonry is absolutely a secret society:

[attachment=0]secretsociety.png[/attachment]

SamBee wrote:

To me that is as much of a fudge as “sacred not secret”.

I do agree with the use of this explanation given by members of the Church for this reason: in an ideal world for the Church, everyone would be of the disposition and means to prepare themselves to enjoy the blessings of the temple. If one chooses not to so prepare themselves to go through the temple, that’s fine, but that doesn’t amount to secrecy on the Church’s part. Just the same, if one chooses not to pursue a law degree, that does not mean that the finer points of the law are being hidden from them; the same applies to most fields of knowledge.

SamBee wrote:

If you’re not open about what you do with outsiders, then it is a secret.

As is obvious in the interview, I’m personally open to people regarding both the Church’s temple ceremony and Freemasonry. Sure, there are some few points that I don’t expound upon for obvious reasons, but that does not make the whole thing secret. Private, sure.

SamBee wrote:

Freemasonry is not a secret society in the sense it exists openly with signposted buildings etc. But even that is not entirely true since there have been underground lodges, and ones which do not advertise their existence like Propaganda Due (P2) in Italy.

The only “underground lodges” that I can think of are those that secretly operated amongst Holocaust prisoners in Nazi Germany, and this solely because being a Mason openly would have resulted in further persecution (it is estimated that up to 200,000 Freemasons were Holocaust victims). P2’s Masonic charter was forcibly withdrawn by the Grand Lodge of Italy years before it was caught because it was not in-line with the ancient landmarks (or basic standards) of Masonry; it therefore no longer qualified as a Masonic lodge at that point.

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