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My advice, which I wish I had in the beginning, is to not take things too literally. These are symbolic (which a few people told me), but even more than that I believe this things that you actually do in the temple are meaningless. I used to try and find meaning in every little thing such as how many light bulbs are on the main chandelier (same as the number of books in the old testament). Hint it doesn’t matter it’s meaningless.
I’ll explain that in the sense that things we do there are not of substance. What is of substance is how you feel while there, how your life has changed to get you there, and it doesn’t matter how often you go.
Go with an open mind, don’t work about taking it all on and even if you go back once a week, don’t read too much into the actual presented items.
I’d be interested in getting you thoughts
I agree, many of these style podcasts are very long for the information recieved but at least the format is more conversational Roy wrote:Another example is Polygamy. I have made it a personal project to collect justifications for polygamy from JS and his contemporaries. If I try to understand it from the perspective of why God would command it for such a short time when it appears to have been so harmful to the church and when the norm for eternal relationships is monogamy anyway then it doesn’t make sense. However, when I look at the words of JS and his friends in the context of their time they thought that polygamy was the order of heaven and the only way to reach exaltation.
In short, I find that requiring JS to fit the mold that we made for him prevents us from better understanding who he was.
I just finished watching a podcast with the historian Dan working with Brian Hale about how he left the church and eventually rejoined. It was interesting to hear his viewpoint on JS’s experience and motivations regarding polygamy and some historical insights.
Here is the video
PazamaManX wrote:
… Once you stop treating them like forbidden fruit, they lose a lot of their power.
This has been my experience as well PM.
I’ve read that article before, great insight.
Too authoritative. The bishop should take everything into account in his decision making/inspiration. Ive had bishop’s that would completely ignore information because he was the head (and therefore was above outside influence), it actually kept him from receiving inspiration. Roy wrote:We had these things called videos that were contained within plastic rectangles. When we wanted to watch a video, we had to go to the video store to rent the the plastic rectangle for a day. If we were late in returning the plastic rectangle, there would be a fine … like an overdue library book.
Haha!
I used to be very concerned about not only the legacy that I would leave but also many of the things I possessed and how they would be handed down.
In my naive youth when I first joined the church I imagined future scholars pouring over my notes and thoughts on scriptures. But I, like Roy, feel that most of it is not interesting nor groundbreaking.
After having lost relatives and some parents I realize the superficiality of having “stuff”. And what is so important to me will be of much less importance to other people. Including my writings, I won’t be and am not a person of significance to anyone other than a small group of close-knit people, who after they are gone there won’t be anyone to care much about the writings of an old man. Even looking at my place and time in this moment my life would be a moment lost in obscurity. I know this is a defeatist view but I’m also a realist.
As far as the church goes, me being a convert, I didn’t have much of a preceding legacy to live up to or follow through with. And of my own children, less than half are active, even though more than half served missions.
When my first grandchild was born I realized that part of me will continue on literally on this Earth after I’m gone.
We’ve raised good humans, and hopefully they will raise good humans.
My legacy will be like my grandparents, striving to survive and doing their best, occasionally failing and probably not doing as much as they could have.
Lol Roy! SD, glad you made it out okay. That is very scary something I think about a lot and I’m sure as our years increase. I think you have a good idea of where your testimony lies and I think I’m about in the same boat as you. I am still active but what I will and will not do in the church have changed a lot in the last few years. I think I think I think I think what I remember now what I was going to say because I was trying to repeat the last stupid thing that didn’t get corrected with the stupid voice to text feature… I think it had something to do with going back to church but pretty much saying no to anything and everything that might be asked of you to do. I’ve recently said no to a talk and doing some of the things in my calling that I just for lack of a better term have lost the energy for.
I still believe in an after life but what that is and how it all plays out his less of a concern on the particulars: whether or not Angels will be standing as sentinels guarding a veil, if Saint Peter will be there with a book, if all my ancestors will welcome me, if a blinding light gives way to a flood of past lives and memories returning, if blackness will be all there is. The latter wouldn’t matter as I would be unaware of it, but I have hope in “something” after this life.
As far as church goes, go if you’d like. In my opinion don’t let expectations of others stop you from going or not going. I am moving into the area of the 90% that show up and don’t really do anything (90%of the work is done by 10% of the people). I’m closer to that 90% that don’t do work.
Glad you’re doing ok
Roy wrote:… I think that if any ambitious individual were to say, “Hey, I have the time. Let me create and maintain a website for the ward.” that their offer would quite possibly get declined. Getting permission for one unit of the church to do something unusual that the corporate church might not have much control over…
Interestingly my father in law told me how in the ward he was in, Mar Vista California, they as a stake started a young adult program which he claims was then picked up by the SLC church leadership and then officially spread through the church. I don’t have any way to verify and it could be that his stake had an official pilot program for the what the YSA would become.
I wonder how much the church was open to new things and ideas before the correlation committee was organized.
I think many members had the same feeling with how the BOM was portrayed as being translated and then finding out that there was a hat and stone involved. Roy wrote:
“Hello younger version of me. You are so earnest and determined and also deluded and completely unaware of your limits. Hello boundless optimism of youth. I respect your efforts to care for those around you. You make some important contributions that, looking back from the perspective of history, will yield good fruits. Know that you make a difference. I forgive you for the things that you do not yet know and for the mistakes that you can’t help but make. I love you.”
This is so true. Well said.
And the cartoon was spot on.
Welcome to the safe place! I was a long time lurker before joining and eventually posting as well. It has been immensely helpful to have a place where I can ask questions, get feedback, etc without worrying family members about my standing in the church , state of my soul, etc. A lot of what you said resonates with me as well, I wasn’t always a member, but the changes were the same.
DarkJedi wrote:
catlady wrote:
I do really like the use of the phrase “faith transition” rather than “crisis of faith”. It is softer somehow and feels hopeful.
I agree. But it should also be pointed out that while for some people they’re the same, for others the crisis is a very real and often very painful process that precedes a transition. For some the transition is away from religion.
I prefer ‘faith evolution’ personally. Coming from a nonmember perspective I had some really terrifying experiences when I thought about eternity and what happens after this life. Growing up in Catholicism, being agnostic off and on, with and without the church I’ve had my faith evolve throughout my life. Some scary moments, some beautifully unifying moments.
I agree it has been hard to find where to ‘be’ in the church, half of my children don’t go, I am at odds at time with doctrine and dogma, culture, etc. But I also realized that there are probably people like me right in my own small little ward that I don’t know what they are going through.
I feel like I can be at peace with whatever level I decide to participate, after all the church is there for me, not the other way around.
Life has not been easy for you, I hope you find peace. I have struggled though hard and difficult times where there seemed few options available other than extreme ones. After struggling through these with and without counseling in my opinion that the latter was a much better option.
IMHO no one is cursed, but some seem to have more then their share of difficulties in life.
Old-Timer wrote:
I have paid tithing my entire life, and I am a grandfather now. I have paid on net income, since paying on money I never get (taxes, etc.) makes absolutely no sense to me.During the pandemic, we have helped our kids and others extensively with basic living costs. Paying tithing on net income would mean not helping others as much – or using a credit card for tithing. To me, that would be stupid – so I have paid tithing on my net income AFTER true necessary living expenses and my “donations” to those expenses for others. That means my tithing has been essentially zero for some time. Our “surplus” comes from my wife’s income, and she pays a full tithe on her net income.
We both declare, in good conscience, full tithing payment.
My conscience is clear.
I agree. Early on in my church experience I was told do you want gross blessings or net blessings? I paid on gross for a while, then started paying more on net. Then I gave to some other charitable options and subtracted that from my tithing.
I think the individual determines what their 10% is and what an increase is.
My conscience is clear as well.
Roy wrote:
I agree that Bishop was dismissive of my son’s concerns. Unfortunately, we as a family are at a point where we are seen as half-milers/slackers/luke warm etc. Therefore, I believe that our concerns are perceived as excuses.:problem:
We have had similar situations in the past with our children and the ward wanting then to conform. We made compromises, met half way, etc example: DS not trim his curly fro style hair to pass the sacrament when repeatedly asked to cut it (sorry, enjoy it while you’ve got it). Other DS who is on the spectrum, we agreed to have him transition into not wearing shorts to church in prep for passing sacrament. We stuck to our guns on issues we didn’t think we needed to budge on.
The church is here for the people not the other way around, especially since we are a home centered church.
I disagree with our no longer having the services virtual, I think we have less people engaged overall who would be ‘attending’ if it was still available.
In short, we are with you in the struggle of the individual concerns over the general body of the organized church.
