[LDS_Scoutmaster]

GBSmith wrote:

Just a quick reminder that we’re still here and we agree. http://www.ldssdf.org/v2/

What? Now another site I might need to join?

Jk, I have very liberal views on nudity, i would be ok with going to a nudist colony, but theres no need especially if my DW didnt go with me.

As our children grew up we allowed them to define for themselves. I didn’t want to stifle their openness but also didn’t want them urinating in the neighbors front yard.

It has been interesting to see the development of their own view of their modesty from childhood to adulthood. I hope that they have an ownership of their views.

[LDS_Scoutmaster]

DarkJedi wrote:

…and I think the top leadership is trying to get a message through that we don’t hate gays as a church and that individual church members should love them in the same way we are supposed to love everyone else.

I agree and see that it’s a bit of the ‘old guy’ mentality of how we grew up with certain prejudices from family towards others, those that are ‘not part of our team’ be it orientation, race, or those darn non-members. I had some of this mentality growing up and even after joining the church, slowly these have shed away.

LookingHard wrote:

But one negative from this is that some in the church assume that the first pres and Q12 are all on the same page and all members therefore must be.

They have always shown the United front. They have really had to they felt, to show a unity under the prophet. Who wanted a repeat of the years after JS where the church was splintered and even the prophets wife went with a different leader.

I’ve heard the stories from some close that they have their individual personalities and disagree with each other. That’s better than the image I had when I first joined.

[LDS_Scoutmaster]

Eternity- I have gone through some of the same emotions. The hardest thing to do is to force the feeling/emotion/spirit that you think you want to feel on a particular instance. The more we chase after it, the farther it seems to fly away from us.

We all need a shake up every now and then to break us out of our ruts, I’m in one now myself in regards to the temple. I want to go because I want to go, not because there is still a stack of names that need to be done. For me it is in the desire to partake of the spiritual and not to fulfill a quota for those that are waiting ( I don’t mean to be sacrilegious here) but the temple is first for the living and then for the dead so take it as you may.

I find quiet joy, insight, sometimes parts of it seems silly and or funny to me, parts of it seem profound lee spiritual.

Don’t know if any of that helps.

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Hi and welcome, I resonate with much of what you said, although in honesty, I am all over the place.

[LDS_Scoutmaster]

When I proclaim that I am a Christian, eyes view me objectively to see if I act Christian. When I proclaim that I am Mormon, more scrutiny. If I professed to be perfect, all bets are off. I think a lot of people in and out of the church look at us like we profess to be perfect. So when there’s an embarrassing moment, the farther the fall. Are other churches members like this or is it a ‘squeaky clean’ mormon image that we’ve portrayed?

[LDS_Scoutmaster]

beccaboo wrote:

I have a vague memory of someone telling me once that it is possible Adam and Eve were not the only people created but rather just the first,or something like that, but perhaps i am remembering this wrong.

Thoughts???

yeah, I agree, speculation and opinion abound.

I have thought recently that Adam & Eve were in a long line of hominids(?), but the first of those to have actual spirits in their bodies.

edit: Also, that the whole Adam & Eve narrative could be an allegory, ie: not actually factual or historical. Ideas abound, personally I am not settled on that subject either.

[LDS_Scoutmaster]

I know I’m coming in late on this one univ, but thanks for sharing. The one thing that came to me as I read your post and subsequent responses from others was that I’m am a slightly different person at home than I am at work, different from when I’m out running, different from at church, different at scouting, different at Christmas with my family, Christmas with friends, you get it.

It’s ok to be tactful around your mom for her sake. She has her own journey, and that shows that you care for her. Your faith evolution will continue on, so there should be care in burning bridges. You may find that in a year your views have changed again. I would like to say Peace, but at points in the evolution it is anything but peaceful. So here’s to hope for you,

[LDS_Scoutmaster]

Thanks RD, good article. My youngest has a slight autism spectrum, and the main thing that I thought of from the article and your comment was the duality of thought. Good and bad exist within me and everyone else. If i break down good and bad, it’s a paradox, as they exist in the same sphere, they can’t exist one without the other, at least as far as our present circumstances and situation are. it has helped me be less judgemental towards others, they’re dealing with what I’m dealing with, maybe more. It’s always been hard to put this into words and there’s lots of debate over it. Think it all comes down to semantics, what we assign words to mean.

Words are finite, and the spiritual can scarcely be described with words.

[LDS_Scoutmaster]

Roy wrote:

Perhaps I have spent my church credibility over time and am just not well tolerated anymore. Perhaps divergent questions are permitted from new converts but not from more seasoned members. Perhaps the instructor felt that I was questioning the perfection of the Savior and tearing at the very fabric of the atonement with it.

I will never really know because there was no opportunity to gain better understanding. I feel like I did the mature thing in not pushing the issue but I feel marginalized 😳 ….and the band played on.

In some ways it seems that I am getting really accomplished at Staying LDS – as long as I do not have to interact with any other Mormons.

There are some people so ingrained in their own knowledge and their answers are so concrete that they cant be challenged. That is their fault not your own. It doesn’t make it any easier to deal with this line of thinking though. Be glad that you’ve got an open mind and keep questioning, I think HF wants us to question. Life is a wonder, and if we’re not wondering, we might as well be concrete.

Keep questioning, I have a few members in our ward that when they raise their hand in class, everyone inwardly groans. Every one of the questions comes from a thoughtful point of view, which most people and even I sometime fail to grasp. Every now and then a question comes that pierces through the concrete and makes everyone think. If you get the chance to talk, open everyone’s minds to the fact that if they are not Questioning that HF might have something for them to learn that they’ll miss. I’m not good at talking to people but find that I’m better when i can think it out and write it down.

I found that I get ttaken advantage of in conversations with ‘power’ people and those who think like Machiavelli because I just think slower and need to formulate my thoughts. It’s been a real struggle and I’ve learned to cope by not getting panicked into a corner, ” I’ll think about that and get back to you ” has been great because very rarely does someone need an immediate response.

I would love to avoid these people completely, but I think I’m supposed to learn how to overcome them. Dealing with any group of people is a challenge for me, church, scouting, work, everywhere.

I think both Roy and MJ, I think you can affect change in your spheres and break some of the concrete.

[LDS_Scoutmaster]

I am a liberal conservative.

Or a conservative liberal, I forget which.

[LDS_Scoutmaster]

MockingJay wrote:

I agree, Ray. And I just have to say, DA, that since you aren’t a woman, you can’t possibly understand how it feels to find your husband looking at porn. This happened to me on a few occasions, and it was a big deal. It had nothing to do with it being a sin, it had to do with the fact that I felt betrayed. When we got married, my husband in essence promised that I’d be the only naked woman he’d look at. I consider it a form of infidelity. On top of that, I’ve had body image issues since I was a teenager. Seeing my husband look at other naked women made me feel entirely undesirable to him even though he tells me I’m beautiful I am all the time (he’s awesome that way, and I know he means it.) We’ve always had an amazing sex life, so I coudn’t understand why he needed to go anyhere else, including the computer screen. When he finally uderstood how much his actions were hurting me, he stopped. This was all many years ago. I know you’re all thinking that he’s just hiding it better, but I know he’s not because he was just different around me when he was looking at porn. Plus, I ask him to report periodically, and I promise to strip for him anytime he wants 😳

I have heard of marriages ending over porn issues, and I’m not implying anything here to MJ, but this is the one thing that I have never been able to understand/agree with. Perhaps it is because I am not a woman (I get the issue of body image and feeling betrayed), but I grew up watching porn and even after joining the church, MIT, there were times that i was not perfect in this regard. The one thing i needed my wife to understand was that it didn’t mean that she was not enough, or that i didn’t love her, or that she wasn’t beautiful, or any of the myriad of things that crept into her mind. Guys like to look at naked ladies. Fortunately for me, I dont have the drive/impluse That I used to, So its not a problem. But that’s it. Period. Guys like naked ladies. I was always saddened when i heard of a marriage break up over it, because it seemed like such a thing that should not be a deal breaker. It doesn’t diminish his love for you, it didn’t for me towards my wife. If anything I appreciated her more, I know that sounds contradictory but it’s true. Especially now. Everyone is different and I’m sure there are those that it gets out of hand and run up credit card debt or go on to other more serious things, but for me it was never that big of a deal. Did I beat myself up over it? Sure. Guilt can be a great motivator for change, but it can also be an anchor that weighs us down and sabotages our future.

[LDS_Scoutmaster]

Ann wrote:

This quote meant a lot to me when I found it a couple of years ago and might come in handy:

Quote:

We are like sailors who on the open sea must reconstruct their ship but are never able to start afresh from the bottom. Where a beam is taken away a new one must at once be put there, and for this the rest of the ship is used as support. In this way, by using the old beams and driftwood the ship can be shaped entirely anew, but only by gradual reconstruction. — Otto Neurath

I looked at the boat as my own personal faith vessel, but if the boat is the church it still applies, I think.

Great quote Ann! I think at one point my boat burned to a crisp and I found myself floating / drowning. Rebuilding it little by little.

In response to the OP, everyone is at a different level and a gentle reminder of that to your quorum members that Christ was inclusive and not judgemental is possibly difficult to do tactfully. The main thing is inclusivity.

[LDS_Scoutmaster]

LookingHard wrote:

Roy wrote:

I really liked Elder Holland in his talk “Lord, I believe”

He talked about how faith and belief should be celebrated. Yet even he near the end of his comments invited those that can only believe to lean on his knowledge.

The last testimony I gave I read a few words from this talk and made it clear I was OK with those that say “I know” (even though it does bother me, but I need to respect their option to say this) and I proceeded to say that I believe … and invited those that could only say “I believe” to come up and not be intimidated by those that “know”. Only one person followed me with “Well, I am one of those that ‘believes’ ” I was glad he did, but given all the rest of the testimonies where “I know”, it was a bit extra hard to hear that. Kind of like they were saying, “I don’t know about you and your silly ‘belief’ stuff, but I KNOW.” sigh

One of the many reasons I stay is through my faith evolution I have come to take ownership in my church, it became not the church I belong to, but my church. I want to affect change from the inside, and there is too much good not to be involved. You reminded me of either grant palmer or Richard bushman who said that when you’re giving a talk you have a captive audience, and can say what you want (though that might be the last talk you’ll give)

[LDS_Scoutmaster]

Well said LH, it seems a lot of people are in the same boat with slight nuances of difference. So far I’ve found this site full of people who are struggling and maybe upset, but generally still open minded- which fits in perfect.

[LDS_Scoutmaster]

Thanks for sharing SD, life in the church is a mix of all the good and bad for me as well. Life is perfectly balanced between faith and doubt. They can exist in the same mind at the same time.

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