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I guess everyone now takes the story of adam and eve to be symbolic. The literal explanations, which I am sure most of you have heard about, is that this earth was made up of the remnants of other worlds heretofore created. So the dinosaur bones and fossils came from them. Personally, I’m with you guys, I just thought that the literal side ought to at least be represented. This idea is a slap in the face to the traditional sense of “revelation” according to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and that’s why I like it, and also perhaps you are right. Revelation seems to be the way God gets stuff done on earth, so I pose this possibility, and I’ll use the issue of homosexuality for illustration: Homosexuals have been abhorred by most societies since the days of Soddom and Gomorah. If God loves everyone, surely He also loves the homosexual as well as the heterosexual. But all throughout history, homosexuality has been condemned by virtually every society, though practiced underground also. Many churches now recognize homosexuality as a natural way of life instead of a lifestyle choice. And yet others still view women more as livestock than people. Many homosexuals believe that they did not choose to like members of their same sex, but that it just came naturally that way and they were born with it. If this is the way it always has been in God’s eyes, then his prophets all the way along who preached so ardently against homosexuality were just publishing their own (or the popular) opinion instead of God’s will. The current church stance is that people can choose their sexual preference like choosing cookie dough over rocky road at the Baskin Robbins, and that any sex outside of marriage between man and woman is sin. So while the temptation may be there, the sin doesn’t have to be committed. Either God is unchanging, and men have gotten it wrong, or God has been making adjustments to what is and is not okay with him. Why I originally said it was a slap in the face to traditional revelation is because traditionally revelation has been believed to be as eternal as God himself. And principles that are true today were true yesterday, and will be true forever. But your strongest argument in defense of your idea is the Lamanite example. When the true church has been wrong in the past, then God has used the Lamanites as instruments to chastise and humble the members of the church into repentance. It is going to take a whole lot more than just some government legislation (remember Governor Boggs’ extermination order?) to get the church to change its ways. Whatever your personal beliefs are, don’t expect them to be adopted by an iron-gated church that went from being one of the most liberal to one of the most extremely conservative churches in the world. Maybe the church will loosen up their perfectly tied general conference ties and go back to the liberal roots it once had, but I’m not going to hold my breath. This church will mandate that it is not the place of men to order God around the universe on how to run His show. And that by demanding equal rights and recognition for homosexuals would be rather arrogant of us in our imperfect state to do since God in His perfect state issued the commandment to begin with. So don’t give up, but don’t expect too much from the church. God uses oceans to move steamliners, so it isn’t impossible to redirect a misled church, but it takes time and patience, and you are right, it may take a world to do it too.
I think you need to trust more in God than in the church. The church is still learning and growing, though it seems at times to be growing like a teenager. I understand the sensible side of you, so I’ll appeal to that. “IF” the church is true, then it is brought to this world BY God, and THROUGH men. Prophets are not perfect, even if they won’t lead us astray. They still screw things up. And God speaks to you just as God speaks to them. He doesn’t micro-manage the church leaders, though many leaders feel guided by the Spirit. He doesn’t gather the 12 apostles into the Holy of Holies every month to discuss the management of His church. (I used to actually believe those sort of things happened) God wants us to live according to the light and knowledge we have received. That is to act from a position of power, not a position of fear. Don’t be afraid of losing your soul just because you don’t do everything the scriptures and prophets say you must to do gain eternal life. God is the Judge, not them. As long as you do what YOU know to be right, and stop worrying about what you don’t know for sure, you’ll have a good standing with God. If there is no God, and you go about all your days doing good, you will leave this world a better place, and if there is a God, and you go about doing good all your days, then you will receive exaltation. It’s a win-win situation. And if God rejects your life of good because you didn’t live according to ordinances you have not received a testimony of, then He is not God, and we need not worry. Focus more on living according to your beliefs and not according to what your bishop or the prophet says you should believe, and you’ll lose the fear. Find God, and stick with God, not man. If I were to go off of your wording alone, the “right” to be active in participating in ordinances is available to anyone who says the right things to the right people. But I think you are wondering how active you should be in participating in priesthood ordinances. I have a temple recommend, but I rarely wear my garments anymore. My sisters came into town from out of state, and wanted to go to a session in the temple while they were there. So I went with them. I have turned down callings, but I haven’t turned in my Temple Recommend. I don’t attend the temple on my own anymore, but I used to. I don’t think there is anything wrong with taking a step back to re-group on your beliefs. I am very careful not to do things to disrupt other people’s beliefs when I am gathered with my family or other TBMs. I have had times when I felt scared to death because I didn’t know if I should leave the church, fight the church, or conform to the church or what. I’ve also had times when I felt completely at peace and felt like everything would be okay. Above all, I would encourage you to keep going as you try to understand what you believe and why you believe it. Don’t give up. Do the things you feel comfortable doing, and if you don’t feel comfortable, then don’t do it. The doctrine of the church tells us to live according to the light and knowledge we have. The culture has screwed it up to make everyone live according to all the light and knowledge that is out there before we have received it. It sounds like you don’t want to make any waves in your social life, so I would say you should do whatever makes others comfortable. But when you are alone and acting of your own free will and accord, you don’t have to do things you don’t believe in. And if it becomes too hard to go through the motions, as it has become for me, then don’t do it anymore. You make sure that you are right with God in your own life, and He’ll guide you as to what you should and shouldn’t do. I have had an interesting experience recently with my father who serves in a branch presidency at the MTC. He was discussing things with my brother-in law over the holidays and I heard him make the statement, “The gospel is true, the church is not.” As I perked up my ears and eaves dropped on the conversation, I learned the context. He is frustrated with the way “the brethren” are handling missionaries as they are preparing to go out. It is very much a machine. And it seems that every Bishop and Stake President is still living by the Every Young Man Should Serve a Mission policy. I guess they didn’t get the recent updates on worthiness, testimony, psychological and physical ability, and the latest in raising the bar. It will take a while for them to figure it out. I took way too long to get to my point here. My point is that while other churches have truth and may be better suited to bring a person to Christ, ultimately if these ordinances and the power of the priesthood are required in order to qualify a person for entry into the Celestial Kingdom, then no other church has these things. God can guide his children however He will, as I know he’s been guiding me. But most importantly, those ordinances alone are not enough to save a soul. We can’t be saved in ignorance, so we must seek that personal relationship and do much more than just attending church once a week and staring at the scriptures once a day and home teaching once a month. I don’t believe any of those things are required for exaltation. But I do believe that knowledge is. I’m impressed with the people in this forum for that reason. None of you are sitting around any longer, just trusting that you are right. You all seem to be seeking to really know. I commend all of you on your own quests to seek God as Paul describes in Acts 17:21-30.
I don’t really try to introduce people to the church anymore unless they are attracted to it and I think it would really add something to their lives. One thing I am adamantly against is the church’s stance on refusing to acknowledge any historical facts that shed a dim light on the church. Boyd K. Packer warned the BYU people and FARMS people about those things. I suppose it is okay to ignore these facts until they are brought up, but when they are shining like a bulbous pimple on the butt of the church, and the missionaries and church representatives are all saying to just ignore it, I say that enough is enough. We live in an imperfect world and it has always been imperfect. We do NOT revere prophets as being more than men. They have all claimed to be sinners and weak. That is right. So in the history of the church, where things like the Mormon Meadows Massacre and Joseph Smith being Murdered vs. Martyred are concerned, the faithful shall say, “Isn’t it amazing that with all the mistakes men have made, that God has been able to reach out and establish an organization to help clarify his gospel through all that. Have any of us never sinned? Have any of us never made a mistake or a poor judgement call? Prophets are the same way. This church is even today an example of how much God can get done with stupid and weak servants trying hard to do what they think is right. So an alternate approach to the fear of having those who are recent converts to the church be turned away after learning about Joseph Smith being sealed to other men’s wives and a 14 year old girl, let’s give Joseph the benefit of the doubt, seeing as we don’t know his mind for sure, and say he may have not wanted to implement Polygamy when God told him to in the first place and it took some learning to figure out who he was really supposed to be commanding to practice the principle and that learning came with a lot of mistakes. He was only a man, and contrary to popular belief, I don’t think he walked and talked with God on a daily basis having clear explanations about how to do what he was told. Just like Thomas Monson today. I think they both make mistakes and blunder. But God is faithful and he hasn’t let stupid people dissolve this organization yet. One of my most fundamental beliefs goes down to the question of whether or not there is a God. Let me explain my line of logic regarding how your beliefs should govern your actions. If you are an Atheist, and you live your entire life hurting others and exalting yourself, when you die and leave this world, you will leave it a worse place than when you found it. If you live your entire life the best that you can and help others along the way and go about doing good all your days, then you will be a happier person here and now, and when you die the world will have cause to mourn because you left it a better place than you found it. If you believe in God, and you live the self-centered life, then you will have to answer for your behavior. If you believe in God, and you live a good life, then in the end, you can look forward to a reward in heaven. With regards to the incestors, the principles of faith and repentance, I’ve heard it said, are much easier to practice with a body attached to the spirit. So when we die, repentance is much harder to do. Those who die indulging in drugs, will still be addicted after they go to the Spirit World, but there are no drugs there to feed the addiction. Those who have been lascivious will still crave satisfaction without being able to get it. But those who have been self-disciplined and control their cravings and led lives of sobriety and faithfulness shall find rest to their souls because the temptation to indulge in those things will be removed along with the ability.
Cadence wrote:Here are some major ones I have
1. If the way to find the truth of the the church, BOM, BOA, etc is to pray and you will receive a witness, how do I account for the fact that every religion says that and most people get the answer that their church is correct. What is the difference between the devout Muslim and the Mormon. They both prayed and got an answer. So how can one church be true and the other not.
In response to this question, I think it is important to understand that I haven’t seen many religions other than the LDS that teach you to find truth through prayer. Most other religions teach about accepting their scriptures and going from there. Christian religions very ardently insist upon the infallibility of the Bible, and that human emotions can be manipulated. That isn’t an answer to your question, I know, but I hope it helps you understand the question better.
Cadence wrote:2. If my eternal salvation in so contingent on my performance in this life why does god make me live so much by faith. If he really was going to assign me to some lesser kingdom based on earthly performance could he at least communicate more directly to me that I was in trouble?
I also feel like it is difficult to know how well we are doing. The best I have for you is that when the Holy Ghost dwells with you and you feel accepted by that power, then you need not worry because you are doing all that is expected of you. Each of us is only expected to live according to the law we have received, and just because someone once told us something was true, doesn’t mean we’ve received the principle. We receive it when we know, when the Holy Ghost bears witness to us of its truth. If God is the liberal God that Paul teaches he is, then he is far more understanding, and not nearly so angry in his judgement as we think he his in the church culture. He sent His son to atone for our sins. Sins are when we do the wrong thing, and not ignorantly, we know we are doing wrong, and we do it intentionally. Those are the sins that Jesus paid for. So by allowing Him to take care of it with His atonement, we can feel how well we are doing by the power of the Holy Ghost. When the Holy Ghost leaves us, it is a witness of God’s disapproval and our need to repent. If he didn’t remove His Spirit to a noticeable degree, we’d never know we needed to repent. That is true guilt, not cultural guilt that comes from not doing 100% home teaching in the first week of the month. It is knowing we have really done wrong, and as soon as we repent, Christ will change our hearts again, and the Spirit will return. The Spirit justifies us, or declares us innocent. We are no cleaner after coming out of the waters of baptism than we are when we feel the Holy Ghost in our lives 20 years and thousands of sins later.
Cadence wrote:3. Why is it that an emotional feeling is suppose to be more powerful than logical thought. Why must I set aside science and reason to make the cosmology fit and then depend on a warm fuzzy to carry the day?
I don’t go for warm fuzzies or faith promoting rumors. The LDS doctrine is that we seek learning by study and also by faith. Science tends to adapt and change from time to time. God says he will tell us in our minds and in our hearts. So the point I am trying to make is that God expects us to use our logic and intellect to figure out the truth, but not all truth comes at once. For that we need to seek learning by faith. By being able to say that “I don’t know what the answer is, but I believe God does, and one day, when I am prepared, he will help me understand the answer I am seeking.” That may take decades of preparation and enduring before we learn the truth. And when we do, we can rejoice and thank God for helping us understand it in His time. We just need to wait on the Lord and be careful that we don’t expect Him to meet our schedules. He knows the end from the beginning, and He knows all things. He knows what we need to know right now where we are at according to the experiences and the lessons we have learned thus far.
Cadence wrote:4. If modern day revelation is so important why is it that we get no modern day revelation? Sorry the Ensign and New era do not count.
I don’t have an answer for this other than the Ensign, which i don’t believe in. So we share this common question. A prophet’s job is to prophesy. Why don’t mormon prophets do their job anymore? They really haven’t since Joseph F. Smith, I suppose, as he wrote the last big prophecy I am aware of in these latter days. I don’t think blacks and the priesthood involved prophecy, and I don’t count telling people what they should do to be prophecy either. So I can’t say that temples, genealogy, food storage, or missionary work are prophecies. I am sorry I can’t help you any further here.
Cadence wrote:5. Just how does polygamy work in heaven. Doing the math I still find about a 50/50 spilt men vs women. So what, are a bunch of men going to be kept out to balance the equation.
One possibility is that there are more women in heaven than men. Daughters of Perdition is not scriptural, so I am led to believe that one must be a priesthood holder to go to hell. Jacob (I think chapter 5 and verse 30) says that God will command people to practice polygamy, and if he hasn’t called you to do so, then don’t worry about it, monogamy is the law of heaven. And men shouldn’t have more than one wife and concubines ye shall have NONE. God decides who will practice polygamy, so don’t worry about it being forced upon you. I don’t think God will command you to live in a polygamous relationship without giving you the understanding of the principle. Maybe he’ll do as he did with Adam and command you to sacrifice without explaining why, but sooner or later, he’ll send an angel to teach you why you are doing it, and help you to be alright with it in your heart and your mind. But that probably isn’t going to happen ever again until we get into the spirit world.
Cadence wrote:6. Why is it that some people no matter how hard they try never get a witness that they feel was an answer?
I don’t like the answer to this question. If this is so danged important for everyone to belong to the same club, then I would expect God to give a recognizable witness immediately to those who sincerely seek. One possibility is that they never ask according to the proper formula, i.e. they never truly desire the answer, or they are asking God to prove it to them rather than witness to what they have decided they feel about these things. I don’t like the answer, but it is one possibility. My doubts tell me that if we follow the formula that was given in the scripture regarding how to know its truth, then if it isn’t sincere and powerful in holding up its end of the bargain, it should be discarded. But just because you go out with a girl and don’t hit it off, it doesn’t mean you or her is not a good person, just not meant for each other, compatible, ready to be together, or any of a thousand other possibilities. Miraculously we meet up with a mate at a point in time when they are ready and we are ready and we like each other more and more at the same rate and end up getting married. But even those people sometimes get divorced later, because their relationships wither and they stop focusing on the other person. Sometimes I think forming a relationship with the scriptures or receiving a testimony is similar to that.
Cadence wrote:7. If tithing brings blessings why are so many mormons in Utah declaring bankruptcy? (this one may be a bit of a stretch)
Tithing doesn’t stop people from being stupid and living outside their means. Some people pay 10% of their income and expect God will support them in a lifestyle that is at 150% (and even more) of their income. That is not wise. A lot of those declaring bankruptcy are those trying to keep up with the Joneses. They get married in their early 20’s, and buy a $250,000 house like everyone else has in their nice neighborhood, and they buy expensive cars and are not wise with their budgeting. If you make 2,000 a month, live off 1,500 a month (and that includes tithing). And if it seems impossible to do so, take this into consideration. I don’t pay tithing, but I live off of 1,200 a month income and I bought a house on that income. It isn’t big, and it cost less than 100,000 but I qualified for it on my own credit, and it is what I can afford. I don’t have a lot of debt. I don’t drive a shiny new car, but I own it. And I don’t go to movies or eat out very often, but I am doing well. God doesn’t say “pay your tithing and I’ll give you a license to be stupid.”
Cadence wrote:8. Why did that seminary teacher in high school tell me their were no dinosaurs (OK I just threw that in for fun)
Seminary teachers study all day everyday, therefore they think they know everything, and they are too afraid of hurting an impressionable youth’s faith by saying, “I don’t know.” When they come across a question they don’t have an answer to. Mormon Doctrine and other such books are not scripture, they aren’t cannon, and therefore are just the ideas of men, though some of them pretty good ideas. That is the source of a lot of the speculation that goes on. The best answer I’ve yet heard, (this is also speculation) that dinosaurs lived on other planets, and this planet was made from the remains of other planets. The answer I like best is that in the Bible it says there were giants on the earth in those days… does that mean giant men, giant animals, giant lizards, or all of the above? So that’s the best I’ve got to help you with these questions.
Cadence wrote:I could think of about 50 more but my point is there are lots of questions but very few answers other than just believe and have faith. I wished that worked for me.
I had a couple of impressions while reading your post. I have been going through an interesting time myself with the Church doctrines. My impressions are regarding your testing out the alcohol and removing your garments. God is a personal God, and knows and loves you unconditionally. Most Mormons will disagree with what I say because of the church culture. But I am pretty sure I am alright doctrinally in saying what I am about to say. When you live the commandment, and don’t receive the testimony of the Spirit, it may be because God expects you to determine for yourself what you really believe about certain commandments and practices. I have paid tithing my entire life, until I was disfellowshipped. In my mind I decided that I wouldn’t pay the membership dues if they weren’t going to let me into the “clubhouse” so to speak, awful analogy for the temple, maybe, but that’s pretty much how I felt. I haven’t paid tithing in over a year now, even though I did pay to get my TR back when I was welcomed back into full fellowship. All the horrible things that people told me would happen all my life, have not happened. I am not saying everyone should quit paying tithing, or go out and drink, or take of the garment, but when you feel a strong desire to know, then the Holy Ghost will teach you as you test these things out for yourself whether or not they are true. I would look at both of your experiences as testimonial witnesses from the Holy Ghost. You didn’t like alcohol, but you didn’t feel guilty either. So you probably won’t do it again. This could be a testimony as I see it. That is a position of power and control over your life, not a whimpering fear of losing your soul. My mom made all her kids memorize 2Tim 1:7 “for God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love, and of a sound mind.” God wants us to feel in control of our lives. He wants us to act from a position of power and love, not from a position of doubt or fear. I feel like your tests are coming from a position of power, not doubt. Maybe I’m wrong. On the other hand, your garment situation may be from habit. Whenever we adjust the innermost clothes we wear, it is bound to be very uncomfortable. I removed my garments about 2 months ago, and I feel odd sometimes wearing and A-shirt and feeling my outer shirt on my shoulders and arms. But I don’t feel spiritually unclean. I don’t know if any of this helps, but I offer it in a spirit of understanding and a desire to help.
