[leavingthecave25]

This question I still feel I can answer with some degree of honesty. I agree with wayfarer – I’m not sure if I can entirely accept the SDOG. I believe in some guiding force or purpose in the universe, I’ll use the term “The Tao” for it. I’m open to the idea of exalted beings as taught in the LDS tradition, but I would think of Heavenly Father as being one of possibly many exalted beings which are separate and subordinate this ultimate guiding force.

[leavingthecave25]

I think it is plausible. There’s actually a whole group of conspiracy theorists that are pushing that idea and they have a whole show on the History channel about it called Ancient Aliens. They take it a bit too far and try and connect every anachronism in the archeological record to visitors from another planet, but it is still entertaining to watch.

[leavingthecave25]

Amen. I feel like I’m finally getting to that rebuilding phase, and as painful as the breaking down part was, I can see how it could turn out to be a good thing in my life. I’ll be able to say I own my beliefs.

[leavingthecave25]

The topic of spiritual gifts is one I have thought a lot about these last few weeks. We are all part of the body of Christ, but each body part has an entirely different function. I don’t believe we are meant to walk the same path in the church. If the purpose of going to church was simply to have spiritual experiences or learn the scriptures, I personally think I would be better off alone. The strength from communal worship instead comes when our differences are used to strengthen others. As I have contemplated exactly what my place is in the church as a now disaffected member, the thought has came to me “the church needs its Martin Luthers too”. When I say that, please understand that I have no ambitions to challenge the church authorities or demand a reformation. I simply mean that differing voices in the church can have an important place; just like in General Conference how after a dozen talks about how we need to be doing more and more and raising the bar higher and higher we’ll occasionally get a message about simplifying our lives and focusing on what is most important.

[leavingthecave25]

:clap:

I like it. I’m a musician and a composer and find that most of it applies. A teacher I took a composition class from said that no one who focuses on music alone every reaches the level of excellence. It is those who seek inspiration from literature, travel, and really live life who excel creatively. I think art is most powerful when it tells something about human nature or the divine. When our focus is too narrow, we may find we have nothing to tell about. Here is a quote from C.S. Lewis’ book “The Great Divorce” that I love:

Quote:

“Every poet and musician and artist, but for Grace, is drawn away from love of the thing he tells, to love of the telling till, down in Deep Hell, they cannot be interested in God at all but only in what they say about Him. For it doesn’t stop at being interested in paint, you know. They sink lower – become interested in their own personalities and then in nothing but their own reputations.”

[leavingthecave25]

On Own Now wrote:

The one quibble I have with the allegory is the inherent view that the real world is more wonderful and fulfilling than the cave. In the case of leaving the LDS faith, I’d have to differ. Many do feel that they have entered a more enriching world, and I’m glad for them, but I still wish I’d taken the blue pill.

I feel the same way. I don’t find the outside world to be more joyful and more fulfilling. I miss the sense of meaning and certainty I had when I was still able to believe. Now I have to work to find meaning and simply accept the fact that there is no such thing as certainty. I think of the scene from the Matrix where a man is sitting in a restaurant eating a steak, and comments that even though he knows it is all a simulation, that it still tastes good. “Ignorance is bliss”, he says. I’m trying to make the best of it, but I kind of wish I’d taken the blue pill too.

[leavingthecave25]

I found a nice shady spot by the river and read “The Power of Myth” by Joseph Campbell for my “church” today. It was a wonderful experience. I also met with my bishop later in the afternoon and filled him in on what is going on. I wasn’t sure quite what to expect after reading so many other people’s negative experiences dealing with leadership; but he was surprisingly understanding. He basically just told that he felt it was normal and healthy to question and that he respected my need to take a little time off if that is what I felt I needed to do. I’ve been really blessed thus far with receiving support as I’ve gone through this journey thus far.

[leavingthecave25]

ElCid wrote:

I just can’t sit in another F/T meeting as an example or a lesson on the importance of temple attendance, home teaching or missionary work. I begin to think critical thoughts, get angry and ask myself “how can they say that”. I don’t want to feel negative toward the church and its teachings so staying away is the best thing right now.

This is how I feel as well. About three weeks ago I decided it was time to take a Sabbatical. It was such an internal battle every week, and it would take me three or four days to recover from it. Home teaching and missionary work are really sensitive subjects for me as well; I think because when you are experiencing serious doubts the last thing you want to do is convince other people to come into the church.

ElCid wrote:

Being away now I’ve had time to just reflect and I pulled out my old missionary journal. It is hard not to shake my head as I read my journal entries. Many entries express feelings of guilt for either not being worthy enough to accomplish some mission goal (usually baptisms), seeking strength by trying to pray harder or saying to myself “you’re not working hard enough!”.

I think I can honestly say that my mission helped me grow enormously as a person, but in hindsight, I have recognized that a lot of the guilt I experienced as a missionary was completely misplaced like you are describing.

As far as the steps… I’m not aware that anything like that has been written. James Fowler’s Stages of Faith is probably the closest, but that lumps the entire disaffection process into one step. I think it would be helpful to have something like what you are describing as a road map, to say, “Ok, I’m here, and there is a light at the end of the tunnel”. From my limited experience talking to people, it seems like the initial phases of disaffection are pretty similar, but the directions people choose to go after that are pretty diverse. I’m not sure if there is a general pattern everyone follows.

[leavingthecave25]

I kind of stopped going to the temple when my beliefs started crumbling. I went almost every week before then, but never felt like I got much out of it; it was a struggle to just avoid falling asleep when they dimmed the lights for the presentation. I was thinking about the endowment ceremony the other day though and found that the story and symbolism applies in a very profound way to what I’m going through now. I was thinking especially about wandering through the lone and dreary world, and rather than accept what is being taught there, holding out for further light and knowledge. Wayfarer took things a totally different direction than what I would have ever thought of, but that keeps things fresh and exciting.

[leavingthecave25]

It sounds like you’re in the right place to me. 🙂

I was a little confused when I first stumbled across this forum because the name “StayLDS” gave me the impression that its mission was to help anyone who was struggling to remain in the orthodox box. That’s simply not true. There is quite a mix of opinions and personalities on this board, but generally I would say most of us are bound by two commonalities:

1) We have been through some type of faith crisis, and no longer accept all the church doctrine and practices at face value.

2) Despite the flaws, we still see good in the church and want to be part of the community still in some way.

There are some members here who are still fully active and hold callings, but there are also many others who have chosen to limit their participation to a level they feel comfortable with.

[leavingthecave25]

wayfarer wrote:

Plato’s concept is that the true reality is the ideal (the perfect, the flawless, that which exists before men come to the forms) and this world is the illusion of shadows.

Yeah, I am definitely not reading the allegory the way Plato probably intended it to be interpreted. But I am still able to find deep personal meaning in the story. I have always liked Nephi’s strategy of “likening the scriptures unto ourselves”. The writings of Isaiah had nothing to do with Lehi’s family and their migration, but Nephi was able to make connections with the motifs like the scattering and gathering of Israel and apply them to their current situation. Hindus and Buddhists would probably be appalled at how I interpret their writings as well. I’m afraid I have a horrible habit of Mormonizing everything I read. But being able to find meaning and application is the most important thing for me.

I’ll concede your point on the ‘Platonic Ideal’ though. The idea that everything in the material world is inherently flawed simply because it is made of physical matter does not resonate well with me.

wayfarer wrote:

Take a chair for instance. In my emergent, extistential understanding, the chair nor the ideal does not initially exist. A primitive person feels the need to rest one’s legs, and rather than sitting on the ground, s/he sits on a log. Wow, this is more comfortable than the ground, s/he thinks. And, noticing that if i use a stump, with a bit of wood on the back so my back can be supported, this is more comfortable. In time, our caveman figures out that the log or stump is too heavy, and carves out the unneeded wood underneath, giving our chair legs instead of a solid stump. In time, we have a chair. it emerged from need and circumstance.

This is good stuff. To Mormon-ize it again, I would link this to Eternal Progression. I don’t really buy the traditional Christian idea that the garden of Eden was the pinnacle of perfection, mankind screwed it up, and the whole divine drama that is being played out now is to regain this “paradise lost”. We will always be learning, always growing, always improving. (I apologize if I totally twisted that out of the context you intended).

Shawn wrote:

The more I lose sight of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the darker my life is, like dwelling in a cave. The more I’m following the Gospel of Jesus Christ and experiencing the influence of Holy Ghost, the more I see “things as they really are, and of things as they really will be.” That is when the world is bright and beautiful.

This is closer to how I interpreted the Cave Allegory before hitting my faith crisis, and I think it is an equally valid way of looking at it. Thanks for sharing.

[leavingthecave25]

Good luck. I know that would be a very difficult calling for me to take right now. I think you could have a positive impact though if you approach it in a good way. I think of the scriptures that talk about the body of Christ, and how each member has different gifts, talents, and perspectives that create benefit for the whole. The church needs its Martin Luthers and John Wesleys too. I’m not suggesting you go and nail your 95 theses to the door of the church office building, but I think it is good to have members to give voice to some of the more neglected gospel principles. For example, for every ten members that are reminding us that we need to be doing our home teaching, family history work, helping the missionaries, and a million other tasks, I think it is good to at least have one opposing voice that reminds everyone the importance of simplifying our lives, making families a priority, etc. By taking the road less traveled I think you could be a benefit to the ward.

[leavingthecave25]

Welcome. It sounds like you are probably in about the same stage of your life as I am.

nomdeplume wrote:

I also worry about having relationships and getting married. I am single and I feel like if I date anyone at church in my singles ward I am falsely advertising myself as something I am not anymore.

I just started a thread about this a few days ago. This has been a concern for me in my faith struggle as well.

nomdeplume wrote:

all the problems that I had pushed aside onto a shelf throughout my life came crashing down.

All of us on this forum had different issues that brought us to this point, but I think almost all of us can remember the moment when the shelf broke. It hurts. A lot. I have hope that it will get better though.

[leavingthecave25]

As I was reading the original post I had a few thoughts come to mind. I think I’m coming from a totally different place, but I do agree that in trying to sort out all of the details we can forget core principles. I’m really trying hard to keep a sense of hope, love, and charity in my heart as I’m going through my faith journey. When you feel so disillusioned with religion in general, it can take a lot of effort to keep spiritually afloat.

I would like to point out that for me personally, and for many others on this site, knowing that Joseph Smith was a prophet or even that Jesus is our Savior are not “basic principles”. When you have just had your world crash down around you and are unsure if God exists, or if there is even meaning to the universe, accepting the Book of Mormon as the word of God is a pretty high rung on the ladder. This site has been a huge support to me in my struggles, but I recognize it is not a good fit for everyone.

[leavingthecave25]

Old-Timer wrote:

the more experience one has with re-evaluating assumptions and beliefs – the more one is able to alter / modify / etc. That means that it’s easier to deal with a faith crisis

I think you are on to something here Ray. One thing that comes to mind is historical issues. To take an example outside of the church, many people are shocked when they learn that Thomas Jefferson and some of the other founding Fathers owned slaves. We never learn these things in school, because in order to keep things simple for middle school and high school students, they cover history with a large brush and don’t really don’t tackle the nuances of historical characters, or explain the culture and practices of the time period. Experienced historians are able to look at historical figures, and still have a great deal of respect for their character even after knowing all their flaws. I think a big reason for that is because they are more educated. They know that history is complicated and nuanced, and they know better than to judge 18th century men by 21st century standards.

I think the same type of things can exist for a lot of fields of study. A good education is the best preparation for facing the reality of a complex, non-black-and-white world.

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