[Limhah]

I imagine JC could appear to be in several places at once, or jump around back and forwards in time if he wanted to so I wouldn’t try to reconcile his appearances in several widely separated places.

Easy to count the passage of time if they had hourglasses, water clocks, or candles. In the pre-clock era, candles were often marked with graded notches like a ruler to note approximately how much time had passed based on the shortening of the candle; same thing would work w/a graded oil lamp or wick. Or they could tell by the age of the moon after the light appeared again, if it was so many more days advanced or whatever.

[Limhah]

Thanks it seems that clears it up pretty well. Seems they base it on your parts. Makes about as much sense as anything I suppose. I suspect it’s not an issue that comes up much.

[Limhah]

I wonder (maybe it’s been answered already) how the church deals with transfolx in relation to the priesthood among other things. Would a FTM be eligible for the priesthood but not a MTF or vice versa? And how long before we see our first transfolx Prophet! 🙂

[Limhah]

I don’t know a lot about Quaker theology and certainly don’t support a lot of their ancillary organizations but I was attracted to their congregational organization which seemed (to me) largely based on quasi-independent small groups and flat hierarchy. For some reason I expected something similar for Mormon groups based on the small amount of research I had done into early church development.

[Limhah]

One of the things that first drew me to LDS was the F&T meetings. I had previously checked out the Quakers who as you may know make spontaneous talk or testimony a primary part of their service, “waiting on the Lord.” Members sit quietly until someone is moved to get up and say a few words about anything that crosses their mind. I’ve usually found these spontaneous meetings more interesting and beneficial than planned sermons.

[Limhah]

I always felt the congregation should be able to heckle the person on the stand when warranted, like in the British Parliament. I could never get anyone else on board with my suggestion unfortunately.

[Limhah]

I wonder if they’ll announce any new temples again.

First conference I saw was in ’91 … only 45 temples back then iirc.

The 200th conference in 2030 should be quite the event if I’m around to see it.

[Limhah]

My child’s mother, who was once very much a devoted (& temple worthy fwiw) church member lives in another city in a polyamorous relationship, and all three of the members have been together for quite a long time as far as I can recall.

It’s quite a confusing post-modern ‘current year’ household that they live in with my adult child. I don’t keep up with them enough to sort it all out so far! I suppose they do as well as anyone in or out of the church and sometimes I secretly envy the way they really support each other.

[Limhah]

I used to be very much interested in the history, art and architecture of the temples and it was one of the initial factors that drew me into Mormonism, at least from the framework of historical interest (there were other factors too, social, theological, etc.) Even after I became inactive and no longer held a recommend I’d go to open houses whenever possible and have been to about a dozen of them.

It may be that with the conversion to all video presentation and holding the endowment in one room per session (i.e. the patrons no longer “progress” from one room to the next as the narrative unfolds) they felt that the murals would no longer make sense in terms of the point in the narrative they were intended for (creation, garden, world.) Still, it seems that it wouldn’t have hurt to keep them on. Many newer temples also have murals and maybe there are plans to create more modern designs that are more generic, hard to say.

The whole point of the progressive endowment was to demonstrate through the different parts of the narrative the, well, progression from one state of life to another: creation, the garden of Eden, the lone and dreary world. It also allowed a nice couple of breaks so that patrons could get up and move to another space and created some anticipation for the next phase. (IIRC, the terrestrial and celestial rooms are the only two that normally don’t and didn’t have murals.)

The computer renders they previously released showing what the renovated Temple Square will look like were impressive (I like the idea of the long skylight on the ceiling of the entry hall leading to the recommend desk) so I hope there is some saving grace in the remodeling.

[Limhah]

Interesting to read about this, I’d heard of Green years ago and had totally forgotten about him until now. I was never particularly impressed by him or his efforts though I never really investigated him that closely.

Back in the day (1990s … !) I was very interested in the ramifications of some of the early Church doctrines such as plural marriage (by whatever technical term was favored … celestial, patriarchal order of marriage, etc.) and checked out a few practitioners of it. Finally came to agree w/some early church leaders that it really is a hard ordinance to follow ‘righteously’ or in accordance with gospel principles. One thing I think is clear is that it only really works in concert with other ordinances, notably United Order. All of which are extremely difficult to follow, especially in our era.

I know folks who practice ‘polyamory’ (not my favorite term) but that’s another kettle of fish entirely.

[Limhah]

The article was fairly broad in scope but in reality it depends on the specific church. The Unitarians for instance are very welcoming to non-believers, Quakers to some extent, other sects less so than these to varying extents. A nonbeliever just looking for socializing (sometime post-pandemic I suppose) might well look for a church more welcoming to one’s own level of faith, and the LDS church would be far down on the list of prospects because it does have some pretty high expectations of members.

Neither way is exclusively bad or good, it all depends on what you’re looking for. Many nondenominational churches require a profession of faith for membership, others don’t. Of course if someone has family connections in a specific church or started out as a believer and then became less of a believer, the situation is a lot more tricky and the options constrained.

I’ve explored many groups over the years but always tried to respect their specific boundaries or expectations as much as possible or else be honest that I’m still in the investigation phase of my journey. I’d avoid churches where one is rushed to come to a decision about one’s beliefs though.

[Limhah]

SamBee wrote:

One thing I notice is how communities end up so much like each other. Even the right-on egalitarian ones where everyone gets a say (allegedly). There are usually dominant figures or a figure. Who these people are and what they are like makes a big difference to how toxic a community becomes, but you don’t want to fall out with them. All the other usual human traits end up in such communities too. People trying to raise themselves up the social hierarchy. Rivalry between people (which is often personal and nothing to do with the group’s aims)

I’ve found this phenomenon also to be true in my own decades of experience with seemingly every group under the sun. Maybe it just goes back to our basic hominid/simian small group hierarchy tendencies and instincts. I’ve also spent enough time in quite small but intense spiritual groups, often with good guidance from more experienced/mature members, to see how these social dynamics play out in detail and how they can be highlighted/magnified in very intense spiritual group situations. This can be a positive, if the individual pays attention to the phenomenon and develops some self-awareness about it.

It seems sometimes like there are more problematic / troubled people in spiritual groups, but maybe that’s for the same reason you run into a lot of sick people in hospitals. These groups attract people who have various issues, and sometimes the issues are not skillfully or compassionately addressed.

[Limhah]

nibbler wrote:

You didn’t say it was bad but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with dysfunctional projects.

Some more so than others, I imagine. I guess there are extremes w/anything, that’s what the middle way is supposed to be all about — avoiding extremes.

Quote:

Everyone’s different but for me I purposely avoided the full investigations when visiting with other religions, I wanted to keep it superficial. The theory was that a superficial investigation allowed me to skim off any good elements, hopefully before experiencing/internalizing any bad elements.

I’m also familiar w/that strategy, it’s fine as far as it goes if one is just playing the spiritual tourist (as I did for far too long, maybe, I started to feel like an amateur anthropologist), but then I started to feel bad for not really participating in anything and like maybe I was dragging the specific group down. To this day I avoid labeling myself w/the name of any religion, mainly because I feel I’d be a bad example of any of them and wouldn’t want anyone I encounter to think “if he’s typical of what all _______ are like, I don’t want anything to do with them!”

[Limhah]

I meant to add a little bit about your mention of Buddhism/Hinduism as preferable or at least more optimal paths for you at the current juncture of your journey. I find it a fascinating thing that so many westerners & folks not otherwise raised in these traditions feel drawn to them, as I have for many years.

I think if it’s an authentic pull that one feels, towards a particular manifestation of what seems most “true” to you, then it’s a powerfully positive phenomenon, but if it’s enacted superficially or without full investigation it can be just as dysfunctional as any other group project. It’s all about the people in the end. The various Dharmas are a huge umbrella under which fit a lot of different and numerous sub-sects, at least as diverse as the various Christian sects in the world.

However, speaking as one who lives a quasi-hermetic life these days, mostly engaged in prayer and self-study, I find that the Buddhadharma and certain core aspects of Advaita Vedanta are well suited to self-study and analysis, even just taken as philosophy w/o the religious trappings. (I wouldn’t recommend straight zen right off the bat; it’s deceptively simple and requires some background to really get.)

[Limhah]

I’m reluctant to give too much advice these days as it always comes off as either self-righteous or pollyannish and, tbbf, I fail to follow my own advice more often than not (maybe the reason we naturally focus on certain things ‘for other’s benefit’ is because subconsciously those are parts we need to work on ourselves?) Anyway fwiw here’s my .02 shiblum …

jamison wrote:

I have had some great experiences spiritually until the last few months of last year. I participated in the worldwide fast on Good Friday and felt a spiritual awakening. I had some great revelatory experiences and miracles happen since December 2019 and then bam, I feel like a hit a brick wall.

‘Spiritual’ experiences are great and can be good indicators of ‘progress’ as it were along the given path but in my experience it’s not helpful to place too much importance on them long-term. I’ve had some mind-blowing experiences over the years, felt to be making huge leaps from peak to peak in my 30s, then seemed to land on a long plateau that just keeps going on. Maybe that’s a normal course of development, maybe it’s about impatience, I don’t know.

I think at some point we are expected to make best use of the wisdom or insights we’ve been granted by sharing them and using them to magnify our own callings and those of others around us, in our own way and using our best judgment. Then we tend to get more supply / awakenings and can shift to a higher ‘plateau.’

Also sometimes it does just feel like you hit a ‘brick wall’ and come to a stop or even regress at some point or another. I’ve felt it myself in recent years … w/me it’s more a sense of paralysis or suspended animation and only now beginning to wise up to my own need to make positive changes if I expect to receive any more energy from the highest.

Quote:

I have gone to therapy, I don’t see the Church has any meaning or part of my life anymore.

Therapy can be a helpful instrument to make use of, it’s sad that many churches discourage secular therapies as a valid resource for members who might need it. I had a great therapist, mainly focused on CBT (cognitive-behavioral therapy) and got a lot of issues cleared out in short order, even though in retrospect all she did was sit and listen! I miss therapy a lot since the pandemic restrictions have ended in-person counselling (I can’t deal w/phone therapy, feels weird), and this seems to be a real stress-inducer for a lot of people.

(But therapy doesn’t have to be in opposition to or in competition with the church! Good therapy can get your head straight about your basic core values and you may return to church reinvigorated and better able to get more out of it, or you may decide it’s not for you, but you’ll know your own mind and be making your own judgments one way or the other.)

Quote:

I believe in the gospel, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Bible, but honestly the Book of Mormon has had no real power in my life during the pandemic. I was always told that the Book of Mormon will help you overcome the evil in your life, and help you overcome any addiction, and problem like it is a panacea. Honestly it has done none of these for me.

It seems that the power said to be in the BoM lies more in the fact of its existence as a token or totem of something greater / more spiritual, rather than the specific words themselves. Certainly there are memorable high points in the tome; the only two real insights I’ve really taken away from the book to the point that I see them almost as the core of the entire enterprise: the Law of Opposition (2 Nephi 2) the Law of Being-As-Joy (“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.”) (2 Nephi 2:25) Other high spots are allegories the the Great & Spacious Building, the Rod of Iron, etc.

That said, I can’t help but feel the BoM could’ve been vastly improved at, say, half to a quarter the current length. The more interesting scenes (the various false churches set up by the Nephites, several of which sound disturbingly similar to currently existing sects; the snarky undercutting of sceptics in the cries of ‘a bible? we have got a bible!’; battle scenes so wonderfully depicted in the old Arnold Friberg illustrations like something out of a pulp Conan novel or a Hollywood sword & sandal epic; much of the stuff culled straight from the New Testament) are diluted and weakened by the morass of excess verbiage and endless battles that tend to blend in to one another.

Anyway I’m rambling. Point is you can get from the BoM whatever you want to ‘pull’ from it, as with any other scripture or source of inspiration. If you’re motivated to find further meaning or power in it, you can find a way to do so, otherwise not. It may be that this is not meant to be your path right now!

Quote:

Then my Elders Quorum President says, I do not think the Bishop is going to accept any of your utility bills any more. I’m glad my hours got increased again, but honestly I pay tithes and offerings my whole life without fail, and I am getting scrutinized for a few utility bills? The Church is for the Youth, and guess what I do not know if I want to attend anymore. I have been a member my whole life and now, I do not like going at all and I do not see the Church as relevant anymore. I am getting more out of Hinduism and Buddhism that is practical in helping me cope during the pandemic.

I don’t know what you expected as charity from the church, clearly in retrospect it was naive to expect anything from them or that they would ever place the welfare of a real person ahead of that of the institution they serve. This situation is not unique to the LDS church however.

If you still want to find meaning or value in the church, that’s possible if you want it, but you can’t go ‘back’ and pretend you haven’t been disillusioned. Reality is what it is, and you can control very little except your own response to it. If you find there’s something beneficial in participating (socializing, which is good for psychological health, for one thing), then continue to do so and let your faith deepen if it will.

If you’re okay with not going back to the Temple, you don’t even have to make tithe or any other payments. Now if it’s necessary, say, for maximum socializing or exploiting whatever other long-term goal you have regarding life in the church, then go ahead and fulfill all the requirements, at least you’ll be honest / at peace w/your own motivations (as so many in the church are not, it seems)

Or just keep showing up at church and show your enthusiasm for your newfound reality. Simply be honest in your interactions, and totally frank and sincere with other members. This was one of the responses I found to be most helpful when I was going thru a similar phase in my membership years ago. Ironically, this is also among the surest ways to get oneself disinvited from church (and most polite society) altogether, so deploy judiciously.

[Author]

Posts