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This is one of those delicate subjects that are a little awkward/uncomfortable to get into much. 😳 Logically I could go the route of arguing that it’s all self-stimulation one way or the other, the only difference is if you’re only dealing w/one body or more than one. And that, to boot, the real sensations all take place in the brain anyway. But bad relationship habits reinforce more dysfunctional relationships, so you have to consider that aspect if you expect to be involved in any kind of in-person relationships going forward.
One of my favorite topics … prayer and what it even is I mainly agree w/others who see prayer as not so much petitionary as more along the lines of an expression of thanks (gratitudinal? is that a word) or as simply a contemplative focusing exercise, as I tend to do.
I occasionally felt such focused awareness, beyond the need for petitionary prayer (for a while anyway), many years ago back in the days when they still let me into the Celestial Room.
😳 Otherwise it’s nearly identical with just hoping, and I’ve always believed the maxim “hope is not a plan.”
On the other hand, with petitionary prayer (even if you hold to the idea of a pseudo-external deity) it’s presumptuous to think you know what to ask for … iirc an old saying of Gurdjieff’s was
“prayer very dangerous, one must first know for what to pray, and to know this is already to know a great deal, beyond the exalted level of ‘Advanced Idiot’.”He also added “for the highest type, only ‘Thy Will Be Done’ is correct prayer, but such are very few!”
:ugeek: I post very rarely these days, haven’t been active at all in any sense since probably ’10-’12 when I still had a few tenuous family connections to the church which inclined me to try to strike a balance, futile in the end as it turned out. Geography and career changes (AZ to Hollywood and back more than a few times) eventually just did me in and I already had too much stuff to keep up with. Now even those family connections have gone, to the point that it’s basically just me. Like many people I still took an interest when an important new message came out or especially when the Presidency changed; Nelson’s presidency has been like a shot in the arm for many people and the changes he’s bringing even caught my attention, for good and ill, so I’d think more people would take an interest in forums like this. By the same token, when the Presidency changes again I imagine there could be another uptick in interest, again both positive and negative.
The massive flowering of temple building is another noteworthy phenomenon that I can’t help but take note of, as temples and their history have long been a major interest of mine, one of the main things that first piqued my interest in the church in fact back around ’91. As time went on and I studied more and more of history and doctrine (all very fascinating, probably deadly dull to most people) I tended to drift off onto by-paths.
The last quasi-church activity I participated in, if these sorts of things count, is the Tucson Temple open house in 2017; before that it was the Phoenix and Gilbert Temple open houses in 2014. It seems that at some point they ended the customary cookies given in the reception area at the end of the tours, or maybe it was just a temporary oversight.
I’d’ve thought that the Covid lockdowns would have increased people’s participation in forums, them having more time to spend at home, as it’s certainly been that case with me. It could be a great opportunity for a renaissance in dialogue and conversation if we can get off of the snappy one-liner aphorism addiction that social media has inculcated. (tbh, I’m as given to telegraphic gnomic utterances as anyone)
tl;dr … I hope the forum continues since it seems you can never have too much useful communication and there aren’t a lot of options out there.
Edit: fwiw, I had to look up the meaning of the BoM name Limhah tonight after I logged on because I realized I’d forgotten completely in the interim
😳 There is no marriage or giving in marriage in the kingdom of heaven. The sons of this age do marry and are given in marriage, but those accounted worthy to obtain that age (aeon), and the rising again that is out of the dead, neither marry, nor are they given in marriage; for neither are they able to die any more — for they are like messengers — and they are sons of God, being sons of the rising again.(Luke 20, Young’s Literal Translation) Old-Timer wrote:[
Admin Note:]Apology accepted. Simply say clearly what you mean, in words everyone can understand, when you comment here.
/back to the discussion of homosexuality
Can I start a thread on plural marriage?
Old-Timer wrote:[
Admin Note:] Limhah, if I understand your comment correctly (and I am positive I do, knowing your stance on polygamy), knock it off. We allow participation from people who aren’t part of the mainstream LDS Church, and we obviously allow different opinions, but we are not open to veiled charges of apostasy for the LDS Church no longer practicing polygamy. Without everyone understanding you believe in the current practice of polygamy, your ambiguous comment doesn’t fit in this conversation – and, really it simply doesn’t fit, regardless. Although I am usually pretty clear about my various stances (and am certainly out of the closet in regards to celestial marriage and united order), I don’t throw around charges of apostasy/shirk lightly, so about that particular point I did not intend to imply apostasy on the part of any Mormon church. If that was the impression I gave, I offer apology.
The only positive point is that we will eventually find attitudes about the celestial order of marriage changing as we go along (or so we can hope), though — ironically — the institutional LDS church is no longer in order in regards to that doctrine, so we’ll be in a bit of a conundrum. (Or is it dilemma?) That’s an interesting profile. But there are only so many hours in the day! I know, I’ve followed way too many paths in my time. 
Wow that’s cool. I just more or less rediscovered this song and starting getting into Leonard Cohen again. I now have about twenty versions on mp3 on my computer including several by Cohen (live and studio), John Cale, Willie Nelson, Jeff Buckley, et al. A music writer recently wrote a book about the song, The Holy or the Broken. Actually it was this book that got me hooked on the song. 🙂 http://www.amazon.com/The-Holy-Broken-Unlikely-Hallelujah/dp/1451657846 Cohen’s story has gotten me interested in spending some time up at the Mt. Baldy Zen Center, where he lived for a while. Looks like a good location for a retreat from the craziness of the city.
Old-Timer wrote:I don’t want the LDS Church to become a more mainstream Christian Church. I want it to remain the unique, peculiar, paradoxical oddity that it is.I agree totally. The elements of Mormonism that attracted me to it originally back in the early ’90s, when I was first investigating it, are just those unique elements that differentiate it from mainstream “churchianity” (a term I hear a lot in some quarters.) If anything, the LDS church has already gone way too far in the direction of accomodationism. This is not true for all Mormon sects, but we’re talking LDS on this board and that is what is most relevant to 99% of the people here.
Roy wrote:I think about these supposed “middle way movement” Mormons. If I was in the same ward with several my “stayer” friends here, I could see us getting together now and then. Maybe for kids’ birthday parties or movie nights, play some charades or Boggle, eat some food and socialize. Maybe sometimes we would trade stories or have philosophical discussions around the kitchen table. Maybe I make a comment in Sunday School that is not wrong per se but is non-traditional (such as that the church is not perfect, even though it is good). Maybe the teacher tries to correct me and SD or Heber or Brian or George back me up. Maybe we start to think we can influence the ward to a more tolerant perspective. Maybe we start to think of ourselves as a ward within a ward. Maybe in this situation we start to look down our noses at the “simple testimonies.” Maybe people start to join us. It wouldn’t be hard, Sambe brings a friend (John) to the BBQ and if John stays afterward for the good natured theological debate – who are we to kick him out? Maybe John’s parents complain to the BP or SP about all the “wild ideas” John begins experimenting with.
As much as I would love for us to all live nearby and hang out together, I could also see where this could reach a sort of critical mass where it really could become a problem for the local church leadership. Perhaps that is what makes the internet such a perfect medium for those that wish to “stay.” We can get support and encouragement to continue to meaningfully participate in the Church, but without the local critical mass that might tempt some to try to change the local church environment. It can be a delicate balance sometimes.
I don’t think it has to be a divisive thing at all. I don’t accept that the divisiveness of middle-wayism is inevitable or destined. I think the key to avoid that problem is not to obsess about doctrine and procedure, not even address doctrine at all because that is rarely the critical factor — it’s relationships and how you relate to each other and the whole ward. I emphasize ward because this really is a very local, one-on-one kind of thing and it seems that it is most crucially apparent at the ward level.
A statement you wrote in the quoted block above — “Maybe in this situation we start to look down our noses at the simple testimonies.” — is exactly the sort of thing we want to avoid and shun at all costs. Also to be shunned is the idea that others have to “join us.” That is also too divisive and it doesn’t have to go that route. It should be a more organic, informal process that is non-threatening to all concerned and respects wherever they are on the continuum of belief.
BTW, this is an incredibly long thread … it seems to have really touched a nerve with many people.
I’ve read possibly apocryphal stories of members getting a chance to meet one or another Apostle in a private circumstance and asking them if they had actually “seen the Lord,” and getting various ambiguous answers or lots of hemming and hawing. Again, possibly Mormon urban legends or apocryphal stories. Old-Timer wrote:My oldest daughter would say you like to study in the classroom of God, Limhah.
I think both sides are right. I’ve been studying mathematics focusing on various ideas about infinity and transfinites that have been discussed by some great geniuses over the years, like Cantor and Godel. They were both somewhat mystically inclined and got a little loopy towards the end of their lives. Something about looking into the Abyss too much, I guess. I think it all ties together somehow in the end (and this is not irrelevant to the gold plates discussion either.)
:crazy:
