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AmyJ wrote:
SilentDawning wrote:
Anyway, what does “ministering” mean to you?
Here is what ministering means to me:
1.
Be There/Be Involved– Greet the family, sit with us, note key events to celebrate. Reach out via email, in person, or via Facebook. Let us know what the boundaries are. 2.
Celebrate/Mourn With Us– Life is short. Share with us your successes, and celebrate ours. Let us help you in a small way when you have cause to mourn. Find ways to acknowledge our grief when we are in mourning. Going thrift store shopping with those who minister to me provided a social boost due to companionably eating dinner first, having a shared interest/victories, and is a way to celebrate the passage of time (new baby, new school clothes). 3.
Don’t Judge– Sometimes empathetic guidance after judging a situation is helpful – but judge the situation, not the person. I already carry around a lot of guilt/anxiety over my family’s non-conformity to social expectations (some of it is valid, most of it is just a product of who we are and what resources we have – and yes, I am working on handing it better and having a more balanced perspective towards it), I don’t need Pharasetical judgement of my life. NOTE: One of the ways I have made peace with it is using the parable of the talents. The person with 5 talents was judged no differently by the master in the story than the person with only 2 talents. The world may judge the 5 talent person more capable, but the master in the story did not. I believe my family is a 2 talent family in the 5 talent world. We don’t have as much ( or have it together as much) as others, but we are doing our part to expand our 2 talents into 4 talents, even though the 5 talent families will have moved on to 10 talents. If the master in the story represents God, then I have precedent to believe that it isn’t the number of talents that matters most, what matters is do you make the most of what you have/the experience. 4.
Be You– The people who have ministered to my family the most have been who they are. One of them is an introvert – I know that she may not want to come over, but I know she will reply to emails with thoughtful comments. Another minister bakes us cookies/cakes – she tailors her desert offerings to non-chocolate things because I don’t like baked chocolate. She made a spice cake for my birthday last year because she remembered it is my favorite.
I’m loving every bit of this. Through the difficulties of this transition, I’m SO grateful for my enhanced sense of awareness and charity for others. It’s one of the most beautiful side effects of this journey, and another comfort to me that I am on the right path for me.
Guys, I’m so sorry I haven’t posted part two yet, but we happen to be selling our home right now and I just can’t seem to get away from that. I do have a lot more to share, and have tried to keep up on the discussions that have been going on here. But one question: is it common to go back and forth in how you feel about the church, like, all the time? I know that I have foundational issues, but I keep going back-and-forth in my long-term strategy about whether I just want to stay LDS or leave. Maybe it doesn’t matter right now. Just for reference, I am a CEO who is well known to be LDS, and most of my friends and family are LDS. The complications with me leaving, I can’t even wrap my head around. It’s just a tough ride. Period. Wow this is a really interesting and thought provoking thread! I get so excited that I have a place to go where people of differing beliefs and opinions are embraced. How’s that for being different? Wow, this is really good Amy! While my faith crisis started a year ago, I guess you could say “it all came together” just within the last few weeks. My work schedule has kept me away from church about half the time recently, and I haven’t been to church at all since I’ve come to some very serious conclusions about my faith. But ultimately, my goal is to enjoy the companionship of the saints who I love, as long as I can be who I am. But, as Curt seems to be good at while being in his bishopric, it’s an important skillset in my condition to “talk Mormonese”. Old Timer wrote:
After reading it, consider the following:Debating with someone who is blind about something that requires sight is pointless – but it also is uncharitable, since it has no possible outcome except contention, pity, anger, condescension, etc. If someone can’t see something, they won’t see it simply because someone else does.
This is an astute observation. I agree that is a disservice to everyone involved trying to explain something unexplainable to the unseeing.
afterall wrote:
When I first heard it, I was so happy. I thought…finally! We are getting to the heart of the gospel. Of course, we are going overboard now. Why do we do this……
Why do we do this about every. single. policy change or new program? Because things are so stale in this church that we have no choice but to go overboard on every “revelation” that the prophet has.
Regardless, I’m also one who loves ANY change. Except when they made us start cleaning the building.
Thanks all. I have been one of those who would never, ever consider looking at anything contrary to what I was being taught. I had no idea about all this church history, and it’s very enlightening, but not in a bad way. It just really helps to know the whole story. The fact is, I like going to church, and I like the people, and I mostly like everything the church stands for. But in this new world, there has to be a way to reconcile how I want to live my life with what I actually believe. It’s an ongoing challenge. Major lurker here until recently. Very recently. For me, I find I get a lot of valuable information from those who post frequently, but I also love it when new people share their unique perspectives, and it adds much to the discussion. I’m always concerned that some of my posts will come across as lame, but overall I think that posting is better than not posting, because you never know who needs to hear your perspective today.
No plans of leaving the church in the near future for me. My friends have a lot of understanding about mixed-faith relationships and making them work while still going to church. My TBM wife means more to me than anything else, so I will be patient with both her and myself throughout this process. My wife knows that I have a faith issue, but admittedly does not know the full depth of it. And she also knows there are some elements that are not exactly black-and-white in the church. It’s nice to know that I have some other people I can actually meet face to face with and talk about my issues. This forum is going to be my home for a little while. By the way, these are people I considered VERY good friends before they left the ward. To my shame, I never considered talking to them after they left, because that would’ve made for an uncomfortable conversation. What a difference a little time makes. And how clear my errors are now. I can tell we are going to be even better friends now.
Man, your story really resonates with the way my journey has been! What a comfort it is to know that there are others on the same path on this INCREDIBLY strange trip. Did I read on this forum: “The Catholics say that the Pope is infallible, but nobody believes it, the Mormons say that the prophet is fallible, but nobody believes it.”
This is the essence of a major problem. We are told over and over about the prophet being human, subject to weakness,etc. But, then the prophet himself says basically to ignore whether what the prophet is saying is true or not and “to just be like him”. Problem is, when the prophet is wrong, and people are living their lives as if it was a commandment from the Lord, what’s the solution? It’s tough.
Still, knowing WHY people feel the way they do in Stage 3 really helps me feel better. I know now that I can forgive their lack of understanding and still be part of the church. And the fact that I’m not alone like I thought I was because this group is here. “Island of Misfit Toys”, Curt and others have said. Good term. Still toys, just different than expected.
Beefster wrote:
I was called to be a ward missionary + Gospel Principles teacher. It’s a calling I would have wanted a year ago (If I weren’t in Utah at that time), but in light of my recent disillusionment with churchy things (which looking back, stretched farther than the last 2 months), it seems more complicated.I feel like the calling came from God and it’s a little kick to get me back on track where God wants me. That’s not the issue. I just don’t exactly see how I’m supposed to fulfill the calling without pretending that everything is hunky dory. Teaching the fundamentals without going into my personal nuances might be hard on some lessons, though my lack of certain inhibitions I hope will make the Law of Chastity lesson awesome. I wish it were as simple as going back to stage 3 faith, but it isn’t. I’m hoping I can use my current state of faith as an instrument in the Lord’s hands and move forward. I hope I don’t have to keep pretending I’m a stage 3 member.
Maybe I could start up a faith crisis support group and model it somewhat after ARP?
I just have to say, Beefster, that I have a tremendous amount of respect for you. You are open and honest about your life in a very refreshing way. I too am a ward missionary/gospel principles teacher. A little more about me: (and I need to preface that these comments are not in any way intended to make me seem more than what I am: a fellow idiot in this world of idiots). But, I am considered by many in my ward as one of those “spiritual giants”. When I teach and bear my testimony, people cry. The last guy baptized in our ward credits my GP lessons as the main reason he was converted to the church. My bishop and SP love me and I am constantly reminded “what an asset I am”.
I also am a NOM and have serious issues with the way the church is run, its history, and with things that more resemble “They teach as doctrine the commandments of men” or worse, “They teach as doctrine church culture”. However, I also have a testimony that everything in the church is exactly how God intends and needs it to be to fulfill His purposes. And I see it as an even higher “calling”, based on my personal relationship with God, to help TBM’s see more a “Gospel” perspective than a “church” one. Not sure if that makes much sense.
Bottom line: in my opinion I am using the talents God gave me to help the people in His true church become more like Him. I am most definitely viewed as a non-traditional Mormon among my peers, but there is nothing in my behavior or words that would suggest that I am anything but 100% in. Because I am. I even shared in testimony meeting about my C of F, and rejoiced that I emerged “more enlightened” about God. Tears from many, and that’s only because I am 100% honest with myself when I am speaking, and people feel the spirit when people are honest, even if it makes some others squirm. The omission of certain topics or viewpoints that could be problematic for me in no way changes the truths that I am speaking from my heart.
DancingCarrot wrote:
Nowadays I view the lessons as challenges to view the doctrine/teaching in a new light, both for me and the class members.This. And, Beefster, I see a lot of me in you. The most unhelpful advice EVER, but also the most common, is “Just hang in there”. But seriously, JUST HANG IN THERE. And, I know you stress a lot about the effect your decisions will or may have on your mom. My TBM wife was devastated when both of our girls decided not to attend church, and I was right there with her at the time. When one of them turned 18 she got a tattoo. But by then there was a year or more of inactivity for my daughter, and by then we both had realized that us loving her for WHO SHE IS was far more important than anything else. She was shocked by our reactions: my wife cried because the tattoo was so beautiful (and meaningful for us), and I made sure she knew that I didn’t care at all if she had a tattoo: I just hugged her. Now, at 20, she is talking about coming back to church, but still has some hangups. I told her not to worry about that part!
So don’t worry too much about your mom. It is a very, very important part of her growth to learn to understand your journey. It is critical for her and for your relationship in the future (which will be richer and deeper than before). She loves you way too much, that’s all, which you know already.
Oh, and you CAN successfully teach stage 3 people but be in stage 4 yourself. As you wisely manage it, it can actually help you to get into stage 5 as you realize that you are really helping people become more intelligent stage 3 people. Care is required though. And it ain’t easy, especially when you’re deep in stage 4.
AAAAHHHH!!!! I haven’t laughed that loud in a LONG time! The thing is, I feel sure that this is actually funny to God. I am much more apt now to see God with a sense of humor, and as Beefster portrays, one that is generally not too interventional, but to me is definitely way cooler than I ever used to think He was. Alas, though, this is coming from me, who was fortunate to emerge from my C of F with my testimony strengthened.
