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When trying to find the source of this
SilentDawning wrote:For example, there is a myth in the church that “no one is paid” in the church. Actually, the people at the top get paid — it’s only the local people who don’t get paid. Uchdorft, bless his heart, came clean on this in one of his talks, but for decades I believed “no one is paid”.
I ran across a 1985 conf talk that GBH does say GA’s get some $ from the churchhttps://www.lds.org/general-conference/1985/10/questions-and-answers?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1985/10/questions-and-answers?lang=eng I have no issue with them being paid, I just wish their was some type of disclosure – even a per-GA average over a 5 or 10 year period. I know there are some well to do GA’s and probably waive off while there are some GA’s that come from less than affluent areas that in no way can stop working or their family won’t eat. I think if there was transparency that this issue would fade away. Compared to any other large religious organization I think the LDS church shines in this area. The longer that nothing is disclosed makes me think that maybe I could be wrong.
Having been a member for all of my life (I am in my 50’s) and having seen much of the good that comes in so many people’s lives was a big reason why I didn’t leave the church altogether during my faith crisis. I have looked back a bit and realize the privilege/blessing it is for me to be at a point where I can knit pick at a few issues. I realize for many that their life has not had the blessings that mine has. Many of those blessings have come from parents being in the church and me being around caring others. Thanks for the reminder.
I certainly am still struggling with the centralized, authoritarian, infallible leaders, never question the brethren, obeying a leader even when he is wrong is the best, … After coming to terms with the Blacks and the Priesthood, I feel that it is my moral duty to find out if what I hear from church leaders is correct. Not doing so is abdicating my moral responsibility. Now if it is something simple like GBH’s 6 “B’s”, that one wasn’t hard to swallow. “You shouldn’t have 2 piercings”, well I don’t feel is much more than his opinion. In fact I just have to say, in “Meet the Mormon’s” I think I saw a close up shot of the Costa Rican kick boxer and she had 1 earing in and one other piercing hole with no earing in it. I assume they told her, “You have to take that out for filming or some Mormon’s will think you a sinner.” When I saw it I chuckled and my wife looked at me to because there was nothing funny in the story at that time.
I know if I bear my testimony tomorrow in church, I will talk about believing in the gospel. I do think that I will never say the words, “I know the church is true.” I have come to the conclusion that the
churchis supposed to help mefind myrelationship to God. I don’t feel my “relationship” with the church directly has anything as much to do with my salvation as my relationship with my God. They usually will line up, but they are not one in the same. Heber13 wrote:I will say I have had very loving leaders who up front recognize they haven’t experienced what I have so they can’t relate, but they love me and have faith things will work out. Those are the messages that help…not someone who things they can tell you what went wrong and why…but someone who just says no matter where you are now…there is a way forward.
I probably would have distanced myself in some way from the church if it wasn’t for my last and current bishops. I knew them well before they were bishops and I think they already knew I where my heart was. I am very grateful for this. There are a few bishops that I have had that I could see a VERY different outcome. That is because I saw it in their own families. Most of this Bishop’s family left the church after being in it solid for a few generations.
Heber, I do think you are explaining some of it. But I still have a hard time with some people (leaders in specific) are sometimes so lacking in empathy. I get that being a bishop is insanely hard and most members don’t have enough empathy for the stresses of a bishop and his family. I would just assume that they have enough of the pure love of Christ. But I have known some good administrators that were what I would call “near heartless” be called to be a bishop. I know that my wife and I can’t even talk about my faith issues. I think part of her feels it is faithful to just ignore anything that does not fit your mental model. The other is that I would have to be honest and say she is more of “I don’t want any challenges even if I grow from them.”
Even though it has just been a few weeks on this forum (and I still have “record My Story” on my todo list), it is refreshing to have others that I feel some comrade.
A win and we should accept it and stop harping over it. I am also glad that “someone” is hearing the complaints. BUT it is clear that agitation DOES nudge things even if we continually hear “Changes will and should ONLY come from on top.” I do dislike those that just like to bash against the leaders. I have lashed out a bit during my angry stage and feeling betrayed. But since then I have always tried to do an honest job of placing myself in a leaders shoes before I say anything. It does help temper just bashing on a set of people that I think by and large are good people and trying their best to do what they think is right. I was hoping/assuming they were a bit more guided in every step, but given my calling I hold now and how sparse the times were I feel a strong confirmation – maybe it is the same all the way up the chain.
RagDoll – thanks for sharing your story (even though it pains me) and your findings. You might have something that explains quite a bit about a certain segment. I hope you are able to come to some sort of peace. I feel for you and your kids. I will third the suggestion to add back “Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing” I noticed that “Softly and Tenderly” was sung by the Tab in conference. Another good one that my evangelical friends and I both like. Very basic on Christ’s love for sinners.
Nibbler – You and I will battle it out for bad humor attempts. I shoot for quantity, not quality. My foot stays clean since it is often in my mouth.
nibbler wrote:In all my years as a member of the church I’ve felt that salvation was forever out of my reach more often than I’ve felt like salvation was something that was possible for me, and by no small margin. Not. Even. Close. That was
methough, it’s what happens when scrupulosity meets a demand for perfection that is not accompanied with enough love to counterbalance. It’s what happens when the messages meant to motivate and inspire one to do better are interpreted as “I find your best efforts lacking.”
This is one of the best wording of this issue that I have seen. It sure pegged me just a few years ago and I don’t think I would be diagnosed with scrupulosity by any mental health professional. I think this is pervasive among the church – possibly all but the cocky.hawkgrrrl wrote:a bit esoteric.
Adam often reads this way. I really enjoyed his, “Letters to a Young Mormon”. I wish it was included in the seminary program.
I do connect with the joy of serving others. In fact I feel a deep need (especially after watching “Meet the Mormons”) to get outside my LDS bubble and really serve people that are in need.
It seems to me as far as church leaders preaching Grace, I would say that we have in the last few years “acknowledged” Grace, but far from embracing it.
Wow. Polygamy is one of the items I still had not tried to take down off my shelf and digest it. I have made it through a few other items off the shelf that I didn’t know I would be able to get through and still stay. With polygamy I am about at a place where the only way I can make it work is that it was a mistake. It leaves me feeling that God is quite hands off with affairs here on earth. The essays were refreshing that the church was being more transparent, but that refreshing drink has an almost unbearable aftertaste.
I like that Ann. I just saw the following quote on another blog and I put it down in my favorites. Quote:
As Bruce Hafen said in the Ensign ,We need to develop the capacity to form judgments of our own about the value of ideas, opportunities, or people who may come into our lives. We won’t always have the security of knowing whether a certain idea is “Church approved,” because new ideas don’t always come along with little tags attached to them saying whether they have been reviewed at Church headquarters. Whether in the form of music, books, friends, or opportunities to serve, there is much that is lovely, of good report, and praiseworthy that is not the subject of detailed discussion in Church manuals or courses of instruction. Those who will not risk exposure to experiences that are not obviously related to some Church word or program will, I believe, live less abundant and meaningful lives than the Lord intends.
We must develop sufficient independence of judgment and maturity of perspective that we are prepared to handle the shafts and whirlwinds of adversity and contradiction that may come to us. When those times come, we cannot be living on borrowed light. We should not be deceived by the clear-cut labels others may use to describe circumstances that are, in fact, not so clear. Our encounters with reality and disappointment are, actually, vital stages in the development of our maturity and understanding.
Sorry I don’t have more of a reference, but I am going to look it up.I have been wanting to reply to this, but was having a hard time forming more of my thought. I like many of the comments from nibbler: I don’t hate, but I would state that I get very uncomfortable at times with some TBM’s. There are some that are so full of love that never cause me stress. It is the one that do more judging and try to feel better by pointing out (even if only in their mind) by pointing out how weak others are.
I also have always been rather empathetic and just as someone mentioned, I often think immediately how something would be heard from another perspective.
nibbler wrote:Hate and dislike are very strong words, I can definitely say that I don’t hate anyone in church. I’ve certainly had my ups and downs, my downs are directed at aspects of the culture or a specific teaching, not an individual.
I can’t say I have never ever had any hatred towards anyone at church. There have been a few people, a bishop and an EQ Pres, that have actively hurt others (things like sexual abuse) and I can’t say at the time I had forgiven them, but those are very rare.nibbler wrote:I’ll confess, Neil Andersen’s talk on Joseph Smith during the most recent general conference made me angry.
Ditto. It left me with the feeling that TBM’s will still view anybody that starts finding out about church history and doubt that those people must have just not had a testimony. I really think we need to get away from that. RUN away from that or we will continue to have people leave that could have stayed.nibbler wrote:Another reason, I hate to see unhealthy attitudes and practices perpetuated. For instance, I see how a whitewashed presentation of church history has affected me negatively so I’m very sensitive when I see that cycle continue. I project myself into the untold number of people that may similarly be impacted negatively some day in the distant future.
The more I have though about it the more that I feel that is what bothers me. I don’t want someone to go through the pain just because of whitewashed history. I don’t see that it is needed – nor desired. We should be open.nibbler wrote:Forgive them; for they know not what they do.
And I include, “Forgive me; for often I know not what I do.”
