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I want to say that SWK said something to that effect. Actually it was someone’s father. They said, “my dad said he never went to a bad sacrament meeting. If the speaker was poor, he just thought with a positive outlook how the talk could be improved.” But I have to say have to admit taking conference a bit like a cafeteria line. Some talks I listen and just have to leave it with “Heavenly Father, if there is something I need to get out of that, knock me on my head cuz I didn’t get much our of it.”
As I have studied church history, I can’t see how others can make that statement when the Relief Society, Primary, Welfare, the Word of Wisdom have all “started” by individuals asking or doing. It is almost like they are saying, “revelation ONLY comes from the first presidency or quorum of the 12.” It is another thing for someone to TELL the 1st Pres/Q of 12 “you should do this!” mom3 wrote:I am glad we are around so we can talk, I can’t imagine how others in the past have survived.
I think they just left the church.I have listened to all but the last segment. There was something in the title that made me feel like, “wait until you get into a better frame”. Kind of along the lines of, “don’t drink too much of that at once or it will pull you down.” The last thing that really got me down in the dumps was reading a bit of the “letter to a CES director”. It was just too potent. I know Mormon Stories has an interview with the guy that wrote it. I hold nothing against him, but when I saw that I felt I just need to pass – at least for now. I will come back at some point. I did find it interesting if nothing else about some history that I was totally unaware of.
Having dealt with others with dementia, I can only laugh at a sitting President being at par with a sailor’s language. I wouldn’t be surprised if the nurses where hit on. That has been my experience. And BWT – that doesn’t bother my belief’s in the least. I guess other than I wish there was a way to give emeritus status and let them live their last bit of their life with dignity and privacy. Even if they are still considered the prophet and hold that position, but the responsibilities fully fall to the counselors. I just seems the humane thing to do. After all these guys have often given the latter half of their lives to full time service.
I do remember that there was some bit of historical stuff that Elder Peterson told Mark that it should never get out because it would cause many members to fall into unbelief. I found that rather interesting, but not unbelievable.
Also there was something about the church security group calling in all the license plates of those that attended an ERA rally to get the names/addresses. Then they relayed that info back to the stake presidents. Something like that today would not only get national headlines, but a law suit to both the church and the police department.
I do a fair bit of traveling in my car out on nice open country highways, so I have been able to listen to a lot of podcasts and really think about them. The only regret I have with that, is I can’t write down little notes, so if I am looking for something I heard, but might take me days of research (re-listening to several podcasts) to find it. I have another long trip in the car coming up later this month, so I have a few. The last few on Mormon Matters have been quite good if you ask me. No pushing a pro or negative stance in so much as just talking about issues.
I consider myself a rather compassionate person and ever since I was small I remember automatically trying to put myself in other people’s shoes – think of their perspective. But I am a bit with Mom on this wondering why TBM’s (sometimes) get under my skin. Most of the time I am content to just see the good in people, but even this last week in High Priests an 80+ year old brother made a comment that was WRONG WRONG (and in fact I am about 99% sure he was lying). I was able to bit my tongue because this brother spouts off something every week and generally it rolls off everyone like water on the back of a duck. But if it would have been in Gospel Doctrine or Elders Q, I probably would have tried to at least bring up there is another way to see that.
I don’t like feeling that way about another TBM – especially when they are a leader that I respect.
Now if what they are saying/doing is hurting someone, I am done keeping my mouth shut. I may be (or may not be) tactful about it, but I am not going to let it slide.
I hope I am not being the guy who walks up to a circle of friends and starts trying to dominate the conversation. It is just so nice to be able to converse with others that are on the same general level. I really could have used this forum a bit over a year ago. If I am overbearing, someone send me a Private Message and put me in my place. I expect I will naturally calm down after I say (in not so many words) “yea- me too!”
I can relate to part of what Heber said:
Heber13 wrote:While I long for the days of my past faith, I look forward to a greater faith and deeper relationship with God, and more compassion and understanding with my brothers and sisters around me, while embracing not everything in the church is at it seemed to me.
Somehow…I find greater meaning in the truths of the gospel. And yet, it comes at a price that I have a harder time obeying things that make no sense to me in the church.
especially the last part. I have no problem spending 8 hours at church on Sunday (no sarcasm – I don’t). I do have a real hard time getting excited about going to yet another meeting on such and such (and not having really gained much for the last 10 occurrences of the meeting).SunbeltRed wrote:I appreciate what the Church has done and I think they did a good job, but knowing more about the history and having read a lot more about it, they chose to highlight some things but not others. There are still some gaps.
Agreed. It certainly keeps people from being able to say I have just been looking at anti-Mormon stuff. I have looked at some, but it becomes quite clear fairly quickly by the quick conclusions that it is all fake.
SunbeltRed wrote:the over arching problem is that all my life I have been told that the Prophet and the Q15 are led directly by Christ. Whatever they say is direct revelation. But the essays keep making the point that although they do receive revelation, it is not very clear, and they have to discern what it means, and sometimes they make mistakes. So members have given time, money, resources, their lives to living commandments that then are changed or adapted and their sacrifices, in some instances, have been for naught.
I guess what I am trying to say, in a roundabout way, is that the essays don’t really help me because my faith in the institution has been undermined and I don’t know how to get it back (and I don’t think I ever will). And that is a really hard paradigm to work in sometimes…
This is also where I am struggling.There was a comment on that link that hit me when I read it.
Quote:
How would we respond to the hoped for modifiers to prophetic statements in other doctrinal statements?Monogamy is God’s standard, for now.
I think the qualifiers would ultimately divorce people from any reliance on the church, and at best realign allegiances directly to Christ (bypassing his authorized servants). A fair hope, but one that you only need to go a step further to “reveal” the church isn’t necessary at all.
I am feeling much more like I need to focus on WWJD and I feel compelled to find some volunteering that feels like it is really directly helping others in real need – not just helping someone that is moving and could have easily afforded a moving service. It used to me that there was not much difference between God and the church. I feel I am working on (realizing?) they are separate. In fact I am a bit displeased with the church’s imperfections and feel I need to back off there and focus a bit more on my relation to what Christ preached directly. At the same time I do see that the church helps people be better more than most any other organization I am aware of. I wonder if a portion of me has “outgrown” church. To me that feels a bit presumptuous. I don’t have much of a desire to part from the church, but I did a year or so ago during the middle of my faith crisis.
It is a work in process.
Sunbelt, I think it is good that you are thinking this through a bit before jumping – even if your intentions are good.
I am thinking of doing something the same with my stake president. I am in a bishopric right now and my bishop is very supportive of more of these issues being discussed from a faithful perspective. I even gave a 5th Sunday lesson to the adults on “shaken faith syndrome” and told everyone I had experienced a faith crisis. I have let the bishop know how emotionally wrenching this was. I think he is sympathetic to me, but a little bit of judgment of a few open NOM’s in our ward.
I just happened to have grown up with our current SP. When I was a youth I was about as TBM as they come. So both my bishop and my SP know me as “one of the ones that is always helping others move, at scout camp/high adventure, etc….) So I don’t feel like I am placing my neck on a guillotine by doing so. Sounds like you have the potential for more risk.
My main question that I am considering is if I ask my bishop to talk with the SP, or I do it myself. I am thinking at this point of asking the bishop what his take would be.
NewLight wrote:I have gone as far as put some quotes from General Authorities in the tablet that talk about the subject that might offer opposing views from the narrative in the lesson. Of course, I don’t have it there to bash with anyone, but to possibly offer another view similar to the approaches that Ray pointed out. My problem is that my memory just is not as good is it once was!
I am in no way someone that wants to bash. Never did it once on my mission and I don’t recall doing it to anybody face to face. OK I think once at work I did when a new guy said something SO wrong I couldn’t help. But we became good friends.
I have thought about really studying the lesson (GASP!) ahead of time and maybe predicting some of the tangents and being ready. But sometimes (especially in HP group) who knows where it is going to go! We have one guy that lost a few of his bricks and you never know what he is going to say. Maybe he is there to help keep us awake.
Not only was my memory never all that good, now that I am at least on top of the hill (if not starting to be a bit over) it is getting even worse! Now can anyone else help me with my inability to spell “conversation” correctly? I got it wrong on the thread subject! DOH! (forehead slap)
I do very much like this forum. Some others degenerate into sometimes very negative paths. I do get when your in the midst of a faith transition you need to blow off some steam, but I keep running into those that Neil A. Maxwell called, “those that have left the church, but can’t seem to leave it alone.”
Well you can still tell the class about the video and enough information where they can find out about it. Or bear your testimony about how wonderful it is that the brethren have made it easier for us to talk with others about this topic by showing us how and how far we can go in talking about this.
Where is the “Like” button when you need it. thanks Heber for writing this down. I think I do some of this, but seeing it so clearly written helps me be more conscious about it. I certainly agree with Roy on
Roy wrote:For me the money qoute was the following:
Quote:The people on the extreme sides of these questions convey great certainty about what should be done. However, I think some of these people are more interested in being certain than they are in being right.
Once again I want to turn what some of the leaders are saying to the church as a mirror back to them.I also like a bit later on about
Quote:“optimists,” “pessimists,” and “improvers,”
and how improvers are the only ones that really change things.I am struggling from staying in a pessimistic / pointing out problems mode. I do want to be more of someone that is improving things.
Good advice and I agree with the difference of in a small meeting of leaders vs a HP lesson or gospel doctrine class. I think what I am most lacking is being mentally/verbally quick on my feet.
I do like MockingJay’s suggestion and the “cross stake” option suggested by SilentDawning. I was just listening this AM to Bill Reel on his interview a few years ago on FAIR where he said (paraphrasing from my feeble memory), “going to look for answers even on Fair will expose you to more questions.” Ah, such is the slippery path.
I started reading Rough Stone rolling as my bishop said it would be good for the whole bishopric (which I am a part of) to read and help “inoculate” the youth. I figured it was from an active LDS member, but a blunt and truthful history. I didn’t get so rattled by it as when I started looking for some other answers and ran across Mormon Stories. That has introduced me to MANY topics, but also helped me figure out (to some level) on many issues.
