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I might suggest you join the facebook group “marriage on a tightrope”. It is a group setup for marriages with one believer and one that no longer believes. There are a lot of good conversations on how to navigate a “mixed faith marriage.” It would be good if your wife were to also join. They try to reach both sides. They also do a really good podcast under the same tname. I won’t comment on the Trib itself other than I sure hope they survive. Kirby was talking about how Lavina Fielding Anderson was part of the September 6 for her writing (among other things) on exposing abuse within the church. She to this day attends church. She requested (or should I say her bishop) to be rebaptized and the 1st presidency declined the request.
Kirby then goes on to say (with humor) he is a much worse person than she is. He even mentions how he was speaker along with Lavina a while back. She found out that Kirby’s knee was REALLY hurting. So Lavina took his keys and gave them to her son to drive Kirby home. Levina and her husband followed to pickup their son. Lavina’s husband passed away later that night due to a heart attack.
I have read the David Ostler book and it is GREAT. It needs to get into every church leaders hand. If you want a preview he has done 3 interviews that I know of on podcasts: Leading Saints, MormonLand (SLTrib), A thoughtful faith podcast, and Greg Kofford Books Authorcast.
Most of my TV watching is on space and the universe. I feel tremendous awe when watching these. I just can’t seem to get anything close to that feeling with church and teachings. In reading AmyJ’s response, I feel compelled to clarify my “trust” comment. I do not feel that the top church leaders are evil and I hate them. I actually have some sympathy for them as there are some serious issues for the church and if I was fully a believer and in their shoes, I would be torn on what to do. But when I say I have lost trust it comes in two forms. I have lost trust that they get any better direction from God than I do and most people. They are just men trying to do their best, but they have baggage just as I am sure I do also. But I also don’t trust them to be 100% honest by the church’s own definition when it gets to things like sex/child abuse and also history. If it is really going to give the church a black eye (that they might be able to heal from over time), they do whatever not to admit. I think it is their MO and for over a century it generally worked well – until the Internet.
But back on the book. There have been 2 podcasts on this that I have heard. One is on Mormonland from SLTrib
https://www.sltrib.com/podcasts/mormonland/https://www.sltrib.com/podcasts/mormonland/” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.athoughtfulfaith.org/301-ministering-to-those-who-question-david-ostler/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.athoughtfulfaith.org/301-ministering-to-those-who-question-david-ostler/ I am really looking forward to this book. It rings true what the recap says. Trust top leaders – 99% shot for me. Local – some good, some not so good.
Belonging – I fit the mold and generally get along well and have tons of friends at church. This and my wife being “in” is the only reason I attend at all. But one thing that I don’t feel that is mentioned in the blog is that members accept me in my path. It feels that overall they accept me because I am orthoprax and they assume I am orthodox. If I were to show I view things differently I doubt most would be comfortable with me.
Meaning – It used to give SOME meaning, but to me most meetings were too long and too thin on taking about God and love. Since my faith transition, this is just about shot also.
The blog link is worth the read.
I am SO excited for a book arriving tomorrow – Bridges: Ministering to Those Who Question by David B Ostler. I will be reading it over the next week and will give some feedback here on it. You can listen to him on “MormonLand” podcast to get a feel for him and his message. He has some mormon cred – active believing former SP and MP and took an assignment to “figure out why people were leaving” and he is a rather loving person from what I can see.
I have attended Oasis (not SLC) and it was good. Maybe just shy of 100 people. I was told an ex-Mo was there, but he was busy conducting that Sunday and I didn’t get a chance to chat. Good music. Good speakers. Donuts/fruit/coffee. Good social breaks. They organized lots of service projects – enough where you probably couldn’t do all of them, but no hard sell to participate. I did notice not many people with kids – like maybe 2 families. The only other negative was that the Oasis meeting place was an hour drive from where I live. I am still attending the LDS church to help preserve my marriage. Otherwise I might give Oasis a try. I sure keep reading and even feeling that human connection is one of the most important human needs.
Having spent more than a decade in YM and most of that time as a ScoutMaster I too have mixed feelings. I have seen my share of Mom’s get their Eagle scout rank via their boys. But I have also seen the program work well for most boys. Most boys really like most of the outdoor activities. Quite a few LIVED for it. Especially living in a city, it is great for kids to get out into nature. What I am actually most scared about is safety. The BSA has a fairly mature safety program/procedures. Sure they do stupid stuff from time to time like ban laser tag, but most of what is in the safety program is a result of some bad thing happening and them reacting to it. Even the General YM president came to our stake a few years ago and one of the main themes was “the LDS units have a bad track record for safety.” It was evident that LDS troop leaders would ignore the safety guidelines more often than non-LDS. I myself as a youth saw things that I am bothered by now (traveling all night) and my kids have had some cases on high adventure that made me worry.
I worry that the church will not be as safety focused and it will take a few bad accidents and even deaths before they start to be serious on it. And as a scoutmaster I had some comfort that if I followed the BSA rules, they would be fully backing me in court if something bad happened and a parent pulled me into court. I am not sure if I have that under an LDS youth activity group.
I might almost venture to say “he didn’t REALLY go down the rabbit hole as much as I have” (I get it – that is judging to say that). But resigning is usually a sign that someone is taking things seriously and it isn’t just that “the bishop ticked me off one Sunday”. But I want to be clear. I am trying not to judge and I am very happy for rebel making this work. But just as Rumin8, I don’t understand it. I have become more accepting of not understanding (knowing) and accepting others truth for themselves. Especially if they are not saying, “You have to think/believe/act just like I do.” I see none of that from rebel.
I am happy you have found a way to make it work. I am glad to see someone that can. From what has been describe I have to say, “I don’t get it”. I assume it is just difference in people, their history, their circumstances, their ward and leadership, etc. But what I hearing you saying just doesn’t really compute for me right now.
I would be considered fully active, but skipping things like Sunday 7AM stake priesthood meeting. I am active because my wife is TBM and I feel it show my love for her to support her even though she knows I don’t believe.
I do think part of me REALLY wants to just be away from any activity, but I am not where I am going to do that. Maybe I would need some “time away” to be able to even have the desire let alone the ability to be in and comfortable doing it.
I have made huge strides being able to feel OK with others (i.e. TBM’s) and not being upset. But that is totally different than actually wanting to be in church each Sunday.
I may at this point be a a different place of “stay LDS” than others. I am more in a place of, “learn to tolerate being LDS’ish”.
I am happy for you and wish you well, even if I am left scratching my head.
I have seen this also. I hired a millennial and they seemed to have most of the stereotypical behaviors his generation is seen as having by old farts like me. He wouldn’t show up to meetings (including walking in late to a meeting with a VP – TWICE). I kept coaching him and it seemed it wasn’t improving anything. I finally had to tell him, “You are just about to get yourself fired.” He was totally shocked. My point isn’t to prove that the stereotype is always wrong. I did notice at the same time someone that was hired the very same day from the very same college and even the same degree as my hire. This guy was on fire. He came to every meeting with, “Give me more work – hard work that I have to learn in order to do.” More than once I saw him raise his hand and volunteer to do something, then stay up all night that night and show up to work the next morning not looking physically that great, but with pride on his face and able to say, “That thing you guys gave me 2 weeks to do, I got it done. It is cool – let me show you what I learned.”
Cohorts probably do have general tendencies, but individuals are still individuals.
On a technical note, the FM group was outsourced and most all the FM employees were moved to that separate company. I don’t know if this is just the US. I do know that temple maintenance was NOT outsourced. But why is it bothering you? I can’t answer that, but I can say that it feels that people are being taken advantage of.
AND for some people it gives them a real meaning.
An example was I saw on reddit a picture of an old man that had to use a walker was down on his knees in a church parking lot (assumed to be) picking weeds out of the parking lot. The person posting it was enraged. BUT, I don’t know if the man really liked being able to do this work and it made him feel meaningful.
For the last few years I have been trying to just be less triggered as I couldn’t stay in a mixed faith marriage being in the “anger” phase. I focus on me doing what I feel is right and worrying less about what the church is doing. I am NOT fully there yet, but have made a lot of progress in that direction. I do think it takes a bit of time to get there and I don’t know that everyone has the temperament for it. I don’t want to tell others they need to follow my path.
REBEL2 wrote:
… finally left the church resigned etc etc Still attendee church as a non member. Almost two years later I was rebaptized and am now waiting for a year to have all priesthood and temple ordinances restored. I was able to come to terms with it all.Thanks so much for sharing. I do feel like I am crossing a bit of a line, but we are all antonymous here. I would really like to know a bit more about how “you came to terms”. It seems that for people that go down the rabbit hole, the vast majority end up leaving, a few are forced to keep playing the part (family, business, etc.), and a very small number become very nuanced and stay. As far as those that have left, it is nearly unheard of to join back to the church. I have heard of one that was really touted by the church a few years ago. I know someone close to that and they seemed to indicate there were some real ego’s involved and wanting attention. I have never meet anyone that I know of that really went down the rabbit hole, left, and then joyously returned. I am quite intrigued.
I still attend, but just because my wife wants me to and she wants me to wait until the kids are out of the house before I “come out” (so I don’t “influence them” as much. I am very ready to be more out and stop attending. So I am even more intrigued that you resigned, but kept attending!
Glad to have you back. I would love to hear your story as it seems so infrequent (like almost never) that someone goes down the rabbit hole including removing their name from the church, then to return. I know I look at myself and I can’t think of anything that the church could do to make me want to return. The only thing that I think would change me is if God touched my heart as my brain has firmly concluded it is all made up. But I have gotten to a place where I am at peace with others finding value in the church and it takes a big item to get me riled up against the church.
