[mackay11]

SamBee wrote:

Just been reading a book by Jehovah’s Witnesses on Revelation. It really lays into the RCs and blames them for Hitler…

Quote:

I think the distinction is this: what AH and the National Socialist Party represented was a manifestation of evil. Anyone who collaborated with their political platform was abetting a crime, and in the religious context, sinning against god.

It’s easy to say that in retrospect, but it’s not how he was necessarily seen at the time.

The JWs got a hard time in WW2. They were sent to the concentration camps along with the Jews, though not the gas chambers.

JWs had the option of a ‘get out’ clause (Jews were persecuted on ethnicity). If they signed a document denouncing their faith they could be left alone. The fact that 10,000 didn’t and were imprisoned is admirable.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah’s_Witnesses_in_Nazi_Germany

That doesn’t justify their accusations against the catholics.

I think we ought to have a little more respect for the JWs who are so often mocked or villified in LDS circles.

[mackay11]

Old-Timer wrote:

(for example, Paul’s counsel to abstain from eating meat when among those for whom abstaining from meat is meaningful and important)

There are some things I believe that I won’t say in church – not because I care if others know I believe them but because I care enough about those other people to shut my mouth and not risk causing serious harm when I can avoid it.

Ray, I like the Paul example. What’s the reference for that, I’d like to add it to my ‘middle way’ quotes. (By the way, I see people say CER when asking for a quote/reference. What does it stand for?).

This is the discipline I need to work on. I (quietly) walked out of SS last weekend as the lesson and comments were frustrating to the point of me wondering if I’d be able to keep my mouth shut.

People don’t go to SS to have their faith challenged but strengthened.

I also worry that I say too much on here on things I struggle with. The last thing I want to do is sew new seeds of doubt when mentioning issues of histrocity that they were previously unaware of.

[mackay11]

Roadrunner wrote:

Dear mackay11,

Thanks for this post, I appreciate your honesty and how you organize your thoughts into knowledge, belief, and hope. That looks like a good exercise for me to go through also. Your comment about not patronizing yourself and not denying your own experiences really resonated with me. I’ve had a few deeply moving, spiritual experiences that I can’t deny and can’t explain yet, but when I hear about other people having similar experiences I’m skeptical. I don’t have much else to add because I feel much the same way you do, and was uplifted by you.

On another note, I may ask for the collection of essays for Christmas.

Hi Roadrunner, thanks for your comments.

I used to feel the need to discount people of other faith’s spiritual experiences as I felt we had an exclusivity of truth. Over the last few years I’ve come to believe that all faiths have that right and opportunity. This either means we are all able to commune with God in our different ways or are all triggering some subconscious emotional reaction in our practices. I continue to hope it’s the first.

I think the reason so many Mormons loose all faith if they leave the church is that if the conclude the church is based on a fraud, then they can’t reconcile how they have had seemingly strong interaction with God while doing or praying about something that has been discredited.

I think the reason I cling on to Mormonism, (amongst other cultural/family/personal fulfilment reasons) is I’m worried about reaching a similar conclusion.

For now I simply celebrate people of all faiths having found THEIR one ‘true/best/ideal’ way to connect with Deity and give their life meaning.

[mackay11]

wjclerk wrote:

Roadrunner wrote:

To answer the question – I think that some of the more unpopular church positions might have changed or softenend with an LDS president. In the next few years I believe that some church stances will become increasingly unpopular in the US and around the world. An LDS president might have provided positive pressure for the church to change. That being said, if Romney were elected and if he turned out to be highly controversial or ineffective then perceptions of Mormons would likely be more negative.

So, for those who believe that the Lord is in control of why everything happens the way they do, would it be fair to say that he didn’t want Romney to be the first LDS President and recognize his hand in the defeat? Just wonderin’? 😯

In a few months time there will be a rumour that a GA had said in a priesthood leadership meeting that heaven sent the east coast storm to turn voters back to Obama because

Mitt had (insert heinous sin here).

If you looked at the polls, Mitt was gaining incrementally until the storm and then it turned back to Obama.

Would be odd if, what some insurance companies will be calling, an act of god, kept the mormon out and the baptist in.

I worry that it will hurt the faith of a lot of people when their religious belief was nothing to do with the outcome. God doesn’t pick the presidents, voters do. It was just a big, expensive job interview.

[mackay11]

Roadrunner wrote:

If it were proven that JS’s marriages to already married women were consummated it might be the proverbial final straw.

I recently asked my wife (a lovely, caring, good person, but also a TBM and an RM) if the bishop or the prophet told her she was supposed to marry them while still married to me. She said “possibly” and that she’d have to pray about it. It made me a little depressed but also jealous that I don’t have that kind of faith.

Ouch! Even the Bishop? Having been a Branch Pres (Bishop lite) that kind of trust is scary.

[mackay11]

Old-Timer wrote:

Is your dad my father-in-law?

I could hear him saying it as I read what you wrote.

Every family needs at least one

[mackay11]

SamBee wrote:

This isn’t anti-Chinese propaganda, Apple uses underage labor, people die in its factories and are not paid properly. One of the sites was English.

‘Poisoned’ Chinese workers turn to Apple for help (from another non-American source)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12550429

Quote:

Chinese workers injured while making touchscreens for mobile devices, including iPhones, have written to Apple asking it to do more to help them.

Some 137 workers suffered adverse health effects following exposure to a chemical, known as n-hexane.

They claim that the Taiwanese factory owner has not given them enough compensation.

Apple did not offer comment on the letter.

Five workers, including 27-year-old Jia Jingchuan, have signed a letter to chief executive officer Steve Jobs, asking Apple to offer more help over the incidents.

Western employers are using manufacturing methods which would have shamed nineteenth century slum factories.

This is why I get angry when Steve Jobs is portrayed as some kind of guru or saint.

We in the west are so disconnected from this, we don’t some to realize what is going on.

I agree, Steve Jobs was a complete (insert insult of choice). He was apparently a selfish bully based on everything I’ve read. And I agree that life’s tough for many manufacturing employees. But this is not an Apple problem. It’s a western consumerism problem. Look around your house. Look at your clothes. We are all buying into ‘Made in China.’

I guess we’ve gone a bit off topic.

I guess the point is that even though lots of people (including you and I) criticised SJ for his approach, he didn’t care and didn’t try to spin his image. I know I do care about what people at church think about me and maybe I should learn to care a little less.

[mackay11]

deepdivered wrote:

I didn’t mention the foot prints in the sand thing here but I did on a different site lol did you read it on the ldsintamacy forum?

Sent from my evo 3d using Tapatalk 2

Lol, no I’m not stalking you I’d not heard of that forum, sounds interesting.

I used the example simply because it’s one that implies we’re going to be carried any time it’s tough. I don’t think that’s true. I think sometimes we’re left alone/at a distance. Not because we’ve been ‘bad’ but to give us a chance to be a little more independent.

[mackay11]

jamison wrote:

I’m confused, Ezra Taft Benson spoke out against communism and socialism, yet if America goes down that rode, President Monson would allow us to embrace what we disdained during the cold war.

The Church wants Fathers to be unemployed? I’m having a faith crisis. I hear many people claim that Obama is the Anti-Christ. I believe that as well when he was elected in 2008. I don’t know why the First Presidency congratulated him on his victory, when they have to be politically neutral. It is like they are endorsing Obama. I read the Book of Mormon and it speaks very blatantly about despots and those that want to take freedom away from people. Obama sees the Constitution as a road block and a negative and our Doctrine & Covenants talks about how the Constitution is inspired and ordained of God.

It seems like it is going against the gospel beliefs.

I just don’t think Zion will survive in an environment that may turn antagonistic against the freedom or religion. Why are we told not to fight, but just to cower in fear.

Why not just become evangelical and believe that Jesus is the only person that can save us? Why not be as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and call all earthly Kingdoms an evil abomination? I just don’t think politics and the church gel well. We are encouraged to vote and participate in the political process, yet the whole process seems anti-Christ to begin with. I think I’m gonna err on the side of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I’m very close to denouncing my faith as I had it conceptualized. Are we just supposed to give up and wait for Jesus? What I have been taught my whole life does not fit into the present paradigm. The Church is like the 1960s hippies just singing Kumbaya, and holding hands and telling everyone that love is all you need, and I am full of hate for my fellow men. I think I may become an evangelical Christian since Jesus is the only person that can save us from evil. I can still believ in the CK. I can still be an inside the closet Mormon. I just think it’s ridiculous going to church and people just stick their noses in their curriculum books and don’t have discussions out of the box. It is almost like we want to be sitting ducks placed in concentration camps.

I realise that some Utah and American Mormons are probably waking up feeling a little sore today after the $2.5bn slugfest went the way of the Dems. But Obama the anti-christ?

The majority of non-US mormons saw Bush as a war-mongering liability and celebrated the election/re-election of Obama. The perception in Europe/Asia is that Obama is reaching out the hand of friendship to countries you’ve previously been at war with. He’s creating a system of caring for society’s poor and elderly.

I know that’s not how you see it. I’m just trying to help you appreciate that most Mormons aren’t Republicans, in fact many Mormons have a more socialist approach to politics outside Utah, and certainly outside US. So why should the prophet speak out politically?

Monson is not the Prophet for Utah/America, he’s supposed to be the prophet for the world.

[mackay11]

Kumahito wrote:

I think the distinction is this: what AH and the National Socialist Party represented was a manifestation of evil. Anyone who collaborated with their political platform was abetting a crime, and in the religious context, sinning against god.

In the US, neither political party’s platforms and position are evil. Those who work in either a R or a D administration are not abetting crime. Ultimately, whether the marginal tax rate remains at 35% or goes to 38% is not a matter God (and by extention the Church) cares about. In 1941, sending ethnic minorities to their deaths was a matter God cared about, and so too should the Catholic Church.

Soooo… Hmmm.

Should the church have spoken out against the invasion of Iraq. That was, under UN definitions, a crime. Some people are pushing for a war-crimes trial for Bush and Blair. There were no WMD. Shouldn’t the church have stepped in and stopped a needless war? Or was it a righteous cause because Saddam was evil? In which case why did/does the church stand by silent while Syria, Somalia, Cambodia happened or continues to happen. Was Pol Pot any less evil than Hitler.

Summary being, it’s a messy, complicated world. I think the church would do best to stay out of politics and stick to theology.

It was not the Pope’s role to stop Hitler. It was not Hinkley’s role to stop Bush/Blair.

I was fully against the war on Iraq. My neighbour on the pews at sacrament might be entirely the opposite. Why should the church choose between us?

FWIW, I think church led campaigns on any political topic are inappropriate – including Prop 8.

[mackay11]

turinturambar wrote:

mackay11 wrote:

I think the footprints in the sand story does a disservice to reality. If we were carried through all the tough parts, it would need no effort on our part….I think there actually are moments where the God I believe in takes a step back, not because of our unrighteousness, but because to always sort stuff for us would lead to complete spiritual/emotional incapacity. Sometimes we have to ride without stabilisers (training wheels for you americans) and it hurts when we fall. And I dislike falling and don’t want to have to. I don’t appreciate it and would rather do without it. But maybe that’s when the best iteration happens.

This reminds me of a poem my favorite Institute teacher shared with me:

Quote:

One night I had a wondrous dream,

One set of footprints there was seen,

The footprints of my precious Lord,

But mine were not along the shore.

But then some stranger prints appeared,

And I asked the Lord, “What have we here?”

Those prints are large and round and neat,

“But Lord they are too big for feet.”

“My child,” He said in somber tones,

“For miles I carried you alone.

I challenged you to walk in faith,

But you refused and made me wait.”

“You disobeyed, you would not grow,

The walk of faith, you would not know.

So I got tired, I got fed up,

and there I dropped you on your butt.”

“Because in life, there comes a time,

when one must fight, and one must climb.

When one must rise and take a stand,

or leave their butt prints in the sand.”

I hope I haven’t offended anybody… :clap:

Not offended, it made me chuckle.

Being a bit of a pedant though I’d probably take up the message in this that we only find ourselves alone and on our butt because of disobedience.

Sometimes very strictly obedient church members have periods of time of feeling or at a distance to the heavens.

But I still enjoyed the poem

[mackay11]

rebeccad wrote:

It is the end of: The world, democracy, the country, job prospects, economic recovery, the Repulican party, and any hope for our children or grandchildren.

At least that is what my facebook page says.

There were many people I know who have never taken the slightest interest in politics who were passionate about this election. I hope that passion continues and expands instead of just dying out. In general I think that the idea of voting has been on a big upswing, and I hope that continues.

Strange, my feed’s full of celebrating Europeans and Asians hoping to have at least 4 more years before Iran’s invaded

[mackay11]

Certainly against the kid being fed whispered lines that aren’t real.

But not against kids speaking in the meeting.

My daughter did for a few months, at her own request (after baptism). I encouraged her to write it down first and always helped her avoid phrases like ‘I know’ and instead ‘I enjoy’ or similar. I’d prefer my eight YO to say she enjoys going to church or reading the BoM until she’s older.

[mackay11]

I’m another one who’s very relieved. Republican presidents tend to be very unpopular outside USA. Dubya was mocked and villified. It would have been very embarrassing for most non-US mormons to have had a Rep Mormon ruling the ‘free world’ and mounting the usual assaults on the heathens of the middle east.

Every mistake he made would have been chalked down to the ‘mormon president.’

I think it’s been a good opportunity for the church to make itself seem more mainstream (or even become so). I think it’s meant mormonstories and the like have been less censured than it might otherwise have been.

I think a mormon candidate was far more beneficial than a mormon president.

[mackay11]

SamBee, don’t believe everything in the US media on Foxconn in China. There’s a lot of anti chinese propaganda flying around given they’re a credible threat to USA’s number one spot.

I think Jeff Lindsay (apologist blogger, living in Shanghai) recently wrote about the proven lies one US paper had written about Foxconn. I’ll look it up.

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