[mackay11]

I’ve been on a mazy range of emotions over the last few months. I can understand your frustrations and am glad to know you’ve found a place to share them. I’ve found that really valuable.

Sometimes we need to have a good rant about stuff that’s bothering us. A good listening ear is someone who won’t hold us to what we said yesterday. This is because often, in having a rant we get emotional and express the full extreme of how we’re feeling. Then, after the rant we’re able to reflect on what we’ve said in moments alone and realise we don’t actually feel as badly as we originally said, but the saying of it was needed to come to that realisation. Does that make any sense?

Does God exist? Probably. I’ve stopped worrying about whether I know or not. Bushman talks about the value of doubt in a recent mormonstories podcast. In workshops I used to run we did something we called iteration. In Mormonism we assume everything’s finished and resolved so take the current version as the right one for us. Maybe it is the right one for some. Iteration of documents at work meant we always assumed it wasn’t finished. We’d put work up on the wall and 3 or 4 of us would read, correct, edit, re-work as much as needed. The assumption that it could be enhanced every time we changed and corrected was liberating.

I’ve come to consider my beliefs in a similar way. Unfinished. We mormons tend to see doubt as a weakness, failing or even a sin. I’ve needed to reframe that attitude and realise that I’m iterating.

I’m sorry to hear you’ve felt alone during your trials. Reality is, sometimes life sucks. Terryl Givens’ letter to a doubter has some very interesting perspectives on why we’re sometimes apparently left alone:

http://terrylgivens.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Letter-to-a-Doubter.pdf

I think the footprints in the sand story does a disservice to reality. If we were carried through all the tough parts, it would need no effort on our part. My kids used to be carried in a baby carrier (papoose). It was the life of riley.

I think there actually are moments where the God I believe in takes a step back, not because of our unrighteousness, but because to always sort stuff for us would lead to complete spiritual/emotional incapacity. Sometimes we have to ride without stabilisers (training wheels for you americans) and it hurts when we fall. And I dislike falling and don’t want to have to. I don’t appreciate it and would rather do without it. But maybe that’s when the best iteration happens.

[mackay11]

Roadrunner wrote:

Because of this, my food storage is in case of unemployment and to help me and my neighbors in the event of a natural disaster. I’m betting we eventually hear about some church member in New Jersey or New York who helped neighbors with some of his/her year supply in the aftermath of hurricane Sandy.

THIS :thumbup:

My parents were amazing with their 1-year. We never had a natural disaster in sleepy UK, but there was a year where money was tight that they did almost no shopping for 9 months and we ate the food storage and garden veggies. On other occasions during times of ‘plenty’ I know my mum would box up a load of food for families who were struggling.

I’m still puzzling at the thought that a group of people who espouse doctrines like “when saw we thee an hungered” or “are we not all beggars” would also have a small armory ready to shoot hungry families!

[mackay11]

SamBee wrote:

Meoclew wrote:

Yesterday was a combined YW’s lesson on “change.” While introducing the lesson, the teacher asked everyone, “What brings about change?”

And I yelled, “Obama!”

Another one along similar lines… We had a lesson on “sacrifice” in EQ. The teacher asked anyone if they could think of examples of sacrifice.

I said, “That bit in the Indiana Jones film, where she’s getting lowered into the fire pit”.

He took it well, and I did regret saying, but still, got a few laughs.

Great response – I think it’s nice to add a bit of spice and life to priesthood lessons.

My Dad is a constant ‘punner’ in priesthood. His proudest moment was when he was about to read a scripture and pulled out his reading glasses. He accidentally pressed to hard on the lenses with his thumb so it popped out. He looked down forlornly and said:

“Oh dear, I’ve brokem my Urim with my Thum-in”

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SamBee wrote:

Depends where you hide it, I suppose. But you would have to defend some of it, which is not an issue the church really addresses.

Why doesn’t the church teach adults survival? We don’t have scouting in the church round here.

I suggest it’s because 12 months food storage is not about survival in a natural disaster. Just as tea/coffee is not about caffeine. They are both principles of obedience, which also happen to make us feel different, special, elevated if we allow it to. This is an effective tool for a minority religion. A lot of the practices of the house of Israel in the Old Testament can be linked to the need to make them feel superior and ‘chosen’ compared to their heathen neighbours. You could even consider polygamy to fall under that category. Whether they are by design of men or God I’m unsure… but they work.

We don’t have to worry about how well we will be able to defend our food because a) we almost certainly will never be in some mel gibson, mad max, apocalypse and b) even if we were, wouldn’t last more than a few days, even with all the training some bushcraft nut at church could provide us.

How much more cultish would we seem if there were photos of us all off on survival camps at the weekend preparing for the revolution

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Orson wrote:

What if it is just the first chapter of the story, and we have the wrong idea about how it will turn?

What if we need to follow the teachings of Christ to experience the mighty change of heart that will prompt us to say out of love for our brothers: “let him take my place in the kingdom, I could not bear to live in glory when this my brother is out in the dark.”

What if our truly following Christ and becoming perfectly loving selfless beings will save all men in the end?

I love this concept. Is the “quote” your own?

Regarding endless torment. I particularly like the message in D&C 19:6-12:

Quote:

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

So first, we’ve no need to worry about people in endless torment. It doesn’t mean that there will be no end to it. Maybe this also applies to the 1/3rd.

More interesting than just this application is the clear statement in 6-7 that the Lord says that we should stop taking everything so literally. Just because he said something that we think we can measure in actual terms (in this case ‘endless’) doesn’t mean we were supposed to. He also suggests (with what sounds like a wry smile) that He doesn’t always mean exactly what we think He means… but doesn’t mind if our misunderstanding leads to His desired outcome for us.

These verses give us the licence to liberate ourselves from literalists in LDS lessons.

[mackay11]

rebeccad wrote:

What a great list, I’m still working on my own. I have found that one of the benefits of going on my faith journey is a deeper study of all parts of my belief. Not taking anything for granted, and taking everything apart and putting it together again is so beneficial. Unfortunately as a TBM I was never inspired to do that.

When it’s working and comfortable we’ve no reason to, so don’t beat yourself up. Until recently I had a domino testimony.

I had a sense of certainty that the Book of Mormon is of divine origins. I had what I understood to be spiritual witnesses around the temple experience and Joseph Smith’s prophetic calling and First Vision.

As a result the Dominoes simply cascaded into place for all the other aspects of gospel principles. Once a few gaps appeared in the domino sequence it no longer falls into place so easily. I need to find ways of bridging the gaps… Or a different analogy!

[mackay11]

It feels like this is a thread with two separate topics, but I’ll try to address both.

Regarding the origins of the world and mankind, I think the Brethren are very happy with people reaching their own conclusions on this. There’s a great article in Dialogue about BH Roberts and James E Talmage making the case FOR ‘pre-adamites’ and Joseph Fielding Smith against. The conclusion of the debate was a ‘tie’ and the church said there was no need to have a doctrine either way. People are entitled to fit the Genesis story into whatever model works best for them and the church hasn’t legislated against it.

I’ll fish out the link once I’m on my PC, it’s a fascinating expose into how things really work at the top. There’s not always instant unity and GAs have strong opinions. It reshaped my understanding of how revelation happens. There’s no floating quill!

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On the topic, I can appreciate you’re feeling very angry, frustrated and unsupported about your employment situation. The hope that one day in the future all will be equal under Christ sounds like it’s a consoling thought for you. If that works for you that’s great. I personally think it’s highly unlikely it will happen in our lifetime.

I’m concerned for you that you’re putting so much pressure on the church and church members to solve your job situation. I’m really not trying to be insensitive. I’ve not been out of work so don’t understand what you’re going through, but I’ve grown up in a place where the church is very small and unemployment is often high. I think the church already tries to help with CV/interview training, self-employment workshops. But it’s simply not practical for them to offer universal employment opportunities.

I think as long as you’re feeling angry at the church and the people you’ll struggle to move forward.

I apologise if I’ve misunderstood or offended you.

[mackay11]

Some really nice examples, thanks for sharing. I’m aware of the pressure I place on myself to appear as a good Mormon to other people.

In sacrament mtg on Sunday I started developing a headache and wanted to eat one of the kids sandwiches with the painkiller I’d take. I hesitated as it was fast sunday and didn’t want to be seen eating.

After a while I had the sandwich anyway as I knew that’s what my body needed (ibuprofen and empty stomachs are apparently a bad mix). It was a very small moment of little significance – not quite drinking beer on the porch – but it helped me realise a little more than I need to be true to myself and let people think what they think.

[mackay11]

Ann wrote:

Thanks so much for this post. I look forward to your thoughts on the endowment as a living parable.

I plan to soon. Would it go in ‘Spirituality’ or ‘Doctrine and History’? Still trying to find my way around.

It’s such a tragedy that both active and non-members take the endowment so literally. That’s one of the things that spoils it.

I’m also trying to work out how much detail to go into. It’s sacred not secret and the full session is on youtube for all to see. I’ll clearly not discuss signs, names and tokens (although they are an important part) but will try to share a few thoughts to give some new ways of considering what many people see as our cultish embarrassment.

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hawkgrrrl wrote:

I have mostly thought of food (and essentials) storage as a preparation in case of unemployment. I do try to stock up on the types of things we actually use that we would need to buy throughout the year, including toothpaste, tooth brushes, deodorant, shampoo, soap, razors, scotch tape, glue sticks, poster board, other schoolwork supplies for the kids. Food is more like a 3 month thing (not here in Asia, but when we were in the US), and unlike stockpiling wheat (the preparation of which is far above my pay grade), I was more interested in stuff we might actually eat or know how to prepare: canned and frozen food. I always kept a supply of frozen meats or dinner foods on hand that we would then try to clean out and replace every 2-3 months or so. I think these are good principles. We do also keep (thanks to my CPA husband) a supply of cash on hand in addition to what’s in the bank.

We were in a ward about 15 years ago where one of the guys in the bishopric was huge on stockpiling guns and ammo in anticipation of the zombie apocalypse or to kill off his less prepared neighbors I suppose and make jerky out of them or something. It seems like an absolutely unchristian and terrible idea to stockpile guns. If people want my stuff that bad, they can have it.

I love that image. What a crazy approach.

One of the men who I admire most is an old chap in my home branch. He served as temple president and area presidency exec sec. When I left he was meekly serving as branch clerk and in presidency meetings/PEC would only share an opinion when invited, despite having more experience than the rest of us combined.

During one slightly over-zealous food storage fifth sunday lesson he put up his hand and quietly said, “You’re all missing the point. We store a year of food so that in the event of a disaster we can feed our neighbours for a week.” What a paragon of christlike attitudes.

[mackay11]

Thanks both for the book recommendation. I’ll look it up.

When I started down this path I set one clear premise. I did not want to leave the Mormon faith. It was not an exit strategy.

I still don’t want to. Now I just need to establish a staying strategy!

Oh the irony… This book sounds like a good support in developing one.

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Thankful wrote:

Welcome.

I understand very much where you are coming from. My story is similar. My husband lost his faith 9 years ago, and I responded by clinging even tighter to the gospel. We had some rough times, but worked it out. We’ve been happy and felt mostly at peace with our respective positions.

Then one day I realized I had never bothered to really understand his point of view, but was always hoping he’d see mine and “come back.” He never did anything to push me, one way or another. His lost faith was painful to him, and he knew the church makes me happy.

One day it hit me that *I* wanted to understand where he was coming from. I realized this is the person who is most important to me in the world. And I haven’t even given his perspective the “time of day.” And I knew I needed to listen and read and pray and understand.

Like you, I was sure that anything I found out would have a perfectly reasonable (and “faith promoting”) explanation. Then I learned more and realized I had no idea of what I’d gotten myself into.

There are days when I think the gospel is amazing and I want to believe every part. There are days when I wonder if I can believe anything, or am deluding myself instead. Some days I think I should renew my temple recommend. Other days I wonder if I can even stay in the church. It’s hard!

I don’t have answers, but understand where you are coming from. This site is a GOOD place. I hope it will help you the way it has helped me.

I got a little choked up reading that. It’s wonderful to speak with people who ‘get me.’ It’s hard to contemplate the notion that the years we’ve given could be meaningless (I still hope/believe they aren’t) or that those who left before us are actually the enlightened ones.

I decided early on in DW’s departure from church to not pray for her to change her mind and come back. Other Mormons are quite surprised when I tell them that. I feel it would be disrespectful to her intelligence and ability to know what is best for her if I were to plead to a god she doesn’t accept to convince her that she’s living in darkness. Instead I hope and occasionally pray that she will be happy and our relationship will be strong.

She’s actually a lot happier in the approach she’s now taking. I hope that the concept of God I have would be pleased with what she’s found as a life-balance.

I believe in being a parent who celebrates children who become hard working rail-road workers, dancers and brain surgeons. I hope that our heavenly parent takes the same approach…

And I’m not sure which of the job titles I’d compare to Mormons

[mackay11]

johnh wrote:

I also find some eastern philosophy refreshing. Seems much more in alignment with true loving creator. Yet still supporting the philosophy of eternal progression ….with a personal focus that does not involve looking down your nose Att your neighbor.

Am I the only one who looks into the lds congregation and doesn’t see a lot of happy blissful people?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

No, you’re not. I see some people who are struggling and hoping, but don’t want to show it. Others for whom life’s just fine and church is a pleasant habit. Others who find fulfilment and satisfaction in church service and testimony. We’re a big mix, but the none-fits tend to stay quiet to avoid being ostracised.

And I agree, Eastern philosophy is wonderful and my daily exposure to it is part of my motive for asking questions.

It amuses me when I see/hear western people talk about India/China being in the dark for 5,000 years. They’ve clearly never explored the beautiful enlightening principles of hinduism/buddhism/confucianism.

[mackay11]

SamBee wrote:

Roadrunner wrote:

• Having a year supply of cash (in a bank) is much more efficient, unless you believe the US government is doomed to collapse or that hyper inflation will destroy the value of your cash.

I have thought about this. I suspect it’s going to happen sometime. Maybe soon the way things are going.

But money? No, not money. That would only work for the first few days of a disaster. You need tradeable commodities, and also a way to defend them. Money doesn’t have practical value in and of itself.

Is there was a true natural disaster on the scale that banks failed and commodities were the only currency then your store cupboard would be so quickly looted and overrun that it would be pretty useless. Anyone see the London riots last year? And your shutgun won’t be enough to protect a year’s supply of food if other people are starving.

I don’t think the 1 year/3 month recommendation is really designed for a natural disaster. It’s either a principle of obedience or fear or helping us become more self-reliant and plan for the future.

[mackay11]

Brian wrote:

Thank you for posting such a thoughtful summary of your beliefs. I have been trying to figure out my own beliefs for awhile now. Your reasons for your beliefs are similar to my reasons for the things I believe or am trying to believe.

I especially liked when you said we might be on a lower left eleven since we have to be commanded in so many things. I hate all the rules and the Pharisee-likeness of our church. So I keep the ones I like: forgiveness, love your neighbor, the golden rule and also I keep the ones required by my wife: wow and loc. Other than that I am glad to have some freedom from Mormon guilt.

Thanks Brian. I’ll preface by saying that sometimes I’ll seem to contradict myself. It’s not intended, but a forum like this is ideal for someone like me who seems to nudge a few degrees daily in my perspective. And sometimes a full 180. As Fiddler on the Roof’s lead character, Topol would say “on the other hand…” – I find it healthy.

So regarding the need to be commanded in all things. I suppose that’s a human trait. We seem to be too uncertain and need to told. Even though the prophets have told us we shouldn’t need it. We hang on every word of church leaders and them transform it into dogma without them asking us to.

Regarding strict obedience over self-discovered moral principles, I ask myself this:

Are we preparing to be artists or scientists?

If artists then it doesn’t really matter what strict rules we follow. A big blue slodge on a canvas can, in some eyes, be as beautiful as a meticulous rendition of a landscape. What matters is the artist’s personal development and free expression.

But if scientists, it does need consistent application of strict rules. If we are preparing to be great biologists, chemists and physicists in the sky, then the discipline of obedience to laws, even apparently trivial ones, is important.

Is God asking us to be faithful over a few thing, so he can make us ruler over many things (Matt 25:21)?

“On the other hand…” In the parable the master didn’t tell them how to multiply the talents, or even that he wanted them multiplied at all, so maybe he’s asking us for independent personal reinvestment based on our best judgement.

I’m not sure (and that’s the rub).

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