Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Think this has been used, but to repeat: Quote:“I have said these things because I fear dictatorial dogmatism, rigidity of procedure and intolerance even more than I fear cigarettes, cards, and other devices the adversary may use to nullify faith and kill religion.
Fanaticism and bigotry have been the deadly enemies of true religion in the long past. They have made it forbidding, shut it up in cold grey walls of monastery and nunnery, out of the sunlight and fragrance of the growing world.
They have garbed it in black and then in white, when in truth it is neither black nor white, any more than life is black or white, for religion is life abundant, glowing life, with all its shades, colors and hues, as the children of men reflect in the patterns of their lives the radiance of the Holy Spirit in varying degrees. I pray that men may understand God and the Church, and I pray that the Church may understand men and human nature. With such understandings there must come sympathy and love. Truth and love will save the world. May they ever be our portion.”
Stephen L. Richards’ April 1932 General Conference address “Bringing Humanity to the Gospel”
Not sure if any of these quotes have been shared before: Quote:“You must work through the Spirit. If that leads you into conflict with the program of the Church, you follow the voice of the Spirit.” (Elder Seymour B. Young, First Quorum of the Seventy 1882-1924).
Quote:“Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a bishop, an apostle, or a President; if you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support will be gone; but if we lean on God, He will never fail us. When men and women depend upon God alone and trust in Him alone, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside”. (George Q. Cannon, First Counselor in the First Presidency, Deseret Weekly, 43:322, Mar 7, 1891).
Quote:“We have hitherto acted too much as machines, as to following the President. I will confess to my own shame that I have acted contrary to my own judgment many times. I mean hereafter not to demean myself, to not run contrary to my own judgment. When President Young says that the Spirit of the Lord says thus and so, I don’t consider that all we should do is to say let it be so.” (Elder Orson Pratt; see Conflict in the Quorum by Gary James Bergera, 2002).
Quote:“If we have presidents or apostles or anybody that we do not like, let us vote them out, and be free men, and cultivate and cherish in our bosoms the principles of liberty.” (President John Taylor, 7 October 1872; “Discourse,” The Deseret News Weekly, volume 21, number 48.)
Cadence wrote:If you are both at peace with yourselves, and you feel you are doing those things that enhance you personally and those around you, I say you are going to be just fine.
+1
Had a brief questioning blip at 16 or 17 and then mid 30s for the full transition. My wife was the same. Most of the people I know (in “real life”) who have gone through this have been 30s or 40s. A few in their 20s. It’s worth saying that the best thing about Wikipedia is the requirement to provide sources. If possible, click through and read the source behind the claim being made. Sometimes I discount claims based on weak sources. Wikipedia is a surprisingly good place to work through some of the big issues. They go into more detail than the LDS.org essays but don’t carry the same “snidey” spin of a CES letter or mormonthink. The advantage of Wikipedia is they are fully referenced for further reading and have both “pro” and “con” editors working on the content and agreeing edits. It has an established system for “right to reply” that few other websites provide.
Personally I wouldn’t let her anywhere near mormonthink or CES letter. I don’t like either and think CES letter in particular is a massive over-simplification of nearly every single skeleton in Mormonism’s closet.
First time I read this quote, I didn’t like it. Then I read it again and realised there was a distinction being drawn between revelation and divine revelation. I found it interesting. Especially the second paragraph: Quote:
“Then if we have the religion of the Savior we are entitled to the blessings precisely as they were anciently. Not that all had visions, not that all had dreams, not that all had the gift of tongues or the interpretation of tongues, but every man received according to his capacity and the blessing of the Giver. “Well, brother Brigham, have you had visions?” Yes, I have. “Have you had revelations?” Yes, I have them all the time, I live constantly by the principle of revelation. I never received one iota of intelligence, from the letter A to what I now know, I mean that, from the very start of my life to this time, I have never received one particle of intelligence only by revelation, no matter whether father or mother revealed it, or my sister, or neighbor.“No person receives knowledge only upon the principle of revelation, that is, by having something revealed to them. “Do you have the revelations of the Lord Jesus Christ?” I will leave that for others to judge. If the Lord requires anything of this people, and speaks through me, I will tell them of it; but if He does not, still we all live by the principle of revelation. Who reveals? Every body around us; we learn of each other. I have something which you have not, and you have something which I have not; I reveal what I have to you, and you reveal what you have to me. I believe that we are revelators to each other.”
– Brigham Young, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, February 17, 1856; Journal of Discourses 3:208-209
Given tithing was instituted as 10% of increase/excess there’s no “right or wrong” amount to pay. If you’re in financial difficulties and having to go into debt to cover basic necessities then it doesn’t sound like you have much “excess.” Perhaps you and your wife could spend time thinking about what tithing will be based on. There are only a few descriptions of tithing in the canon (where the church says the doctrine is found). Here’s one:
Joseph Smith Translation, Genesis 14Quote:37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest, and the
keeper of the storehouse of God38 Him whom God had appointed to
receive tithes for the poor. 39 Wherefore, Abram
paid unto him tithesof all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.
(Emphasis added)
So Abraham paid tithes on the “more than he had need” part of his riches. Maybe you actually are a full tithe payer.
dash1730 wrote:Mckay,
My complaint with the Essays is that I find no listing of what is available, short of clicking 26 times on their alphabetic list. My cynical twin brother would say they are attempting to make it difficult for people to find embarrassing stuff But then this would not be the first time I’ve been told I must be blind. You said there was a history section. Where is it?
The links I listed above are from this subsection:
http://history.lds.org/section/revelations?lang=eng I’ve been told that eventually they will be linked to from the curriculum.
Also, if you search “polygamy” on the church website, three essays show up. Even “polyandry” delivers a couple of results.
josephsmithpapers.org is also included in the LDS.org search results.
I’d like to see a few more essays but I’d also like a few more to see the essays. I want them in the Ensign and I want them read from the pulpit and referenced in conference.
I want an acceptance of nuance, uncertainty and abandonment of dogmatism.
Hi, Ray… And the other mods. Keep up the good work. This is possibly the only forum/group on the bloggernacle that maintains a good tone (A Thoughtful Faith on Facebook is perhaps the only one that comes close). I got “modded” the other day by Heber. It was completely justified as I’d stepped out of line.
Do you not have the option of switching to a generic/shared “Admin” account?
Maybe you’ve discussed it and discounted it in the past. I worry that it’s too easy to start seeing you as a bit of a “judge dredd” character. It means that when you comment as yourself (as with your recent reaction to my misrepresentation) we’re sometimes too quick to read it in the voice of Ray the mod.
Old-Timer wrote:That’s not what I said, mackay11 – and ripping part of a sentence out of the sentence and presenting it as if it was the entire thought is not fair. I love you, friend, but, please, don’t do that to me. What I said was:
Quote:The LDS Church is not unique in ANY way
when it comes to having historical issues and not addressing them proactively for a relatively long time. That is RADICALLY different than claiming I said the LDS Church is not unique in any way. I would NEVER say that. The LDS Church and Mormon theology are unique in lots of ways – and I flat-out LOVE many of them. Others, not so much, but some of them are a huge part of why I joyfully and peacefully stay LDS.
Fair cop Ray. Sorry. I didn’t mean to ‘clip’ your statement to suggest you felt there was nothing unique in any way at all about the church. I was on my phone and being lazy.
I’ve added a clarifying note to my previous comment (but left the first part intact for context). As mentioned in that post, my concern and reply is still the same, though should have been more detailed and balanced and I’m sorry to have misrepresented your original comment. I didn’t mean to put words in your mouth.
A large part of my disaffection is with the both the reality of the “historical issues” and the way they have not “addressed them proactively” – but much more the former.
It was heart-breaking to discover the church I’d served for 30+ years had so many hidden “historical issues.” The cover up (or “not addressing them proactively) was hurtful and made me no longer trust the church, but what truly crushed my convictions was the actual detail of the issues. It’s not so much the lack of proactivity from the church and more simply that the ‘big’ claims made by the church are undermined by the detail of the “historical issues.”
Saying every other church has historical issues and doesn’t “proactively address them” doesn’t work for me any more. Mormon claims are nothing like every other church so should not be held to the same standard.
I know what the Givens would say on topics like that. They tell us to change our paradigm and be more generous. We’re taught that Jesus Christ visited Joseph and others, in person, on multiple occasions. We’re taught that when a prophet speaks it is as if God himself is speaking. The “historical issues” lead me to the conclusion that those big claims are simply unsustainable. I know that’s not what you were saying, but what I’m saying is that the presence of “historical issues” and, in part, the cover up is my concern.
In case you want a few more, there are some others in the history section. Word of Wisdom:
Quote:“… it required time to wind down practices that were so deeply ingrained in family tradition and culture… The term “strong drink” certainly included distilled spirits like whiskey, which hereafter the Latter-day Saints generally shunned. They took a more moderate approach to milder alcoholic beverages like beer and “pure wine of the grape…”
http://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-word-of-wisdom?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-word-of-wisdom?lang=eng Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible
Quote:“…Joseph’s translation was not carried out in the traditional sense… Historian Mark Lyman Staker characterized the translation as one of “ideas rather than language.””
http://history.lds.org/article/revelations-in-context-doctrine-and-covenants-joseph-smith-translation-bible?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://history.lds.org/article/revelations-in-context-doctrine-and-covenants-joseph-smith-translation-bible?lang=eng Three Witnesses
Quote:““It was in the latter part of June, 1829,” Whitmer wrote. “Joseph, Oliver Cowdery and myself were together, and the angel showed them [the plates] to us… Joseph Smith and Martin Harris had a similar experience…”
http://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-three-witnesses?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-three-witnesses?lang=eng Oliver Cowdery and the Divining Rod
Quote:“Many Christians in Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery’s day similarly believed in divining rods as instruments for revelation. Cowdery was among those who believed in and used a divining rod… The Lord recognized Oliver’s ability to use a rod: “thou hast another gift which is the gift of working with the rod.” (Footnote 9).. The earliest manuscript of this revelation refers to Oliver Cowdery’s “gift of working with the sprout.” Sidney Rigdon changed “sprout” to “rod” in preparation for the revelation’s publication in the Book of Commandments in 1833. The 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants is the first source to call it “the gift of Aaron.””
http://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-oliver-cowdery?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-oliver-cowdery?lang=eng Thomas Marsh and the Twelve
Quote:“Thomas B. Marsh. The first to serve as president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles…
…relationships among the Twelve Apostles had deteriorated significantly… disagreements about their role and purpose and the bounds of their authority caused disharmony. (Footnote 13) Discord and opposition reached such levels that nine of the original Twelve Apostles left the church at various times, and some never returned…
He was among several Latter-day Saints who became disturbed by the increasingly violent relationship between Church members and their Missouri neighbors… He swore out an affidavit in October 1838 that detailed his concerns about acts of violence and destruction he believed were being planned or carried out by members of the Church against their neighbors in Caldwell and Daviess counties, as well as stating his fear that “all the Mormons who refused to take up arms, if necessary in difficulties with the citizens, should be shot or otherwise put to death,” and that “no Mormon dissenter should leave Caldwell county alive.”
http://history.lds.org/article/revelations-in-context-doctrine-and-covenants-thomas-marsh?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://history.lds.org/article/revelations-in-context-doctrine-and-covenants-thomas-marsh?lang=eng
