[Martha]

It is important when looking at this verse to look at in context. Paul was trying to impose more order in their worship services and was specifying how and when and how many people should prophesy or speak in tongues at any given time. It was specific to the culture of his time. He was trying to teach the people that God cannot speak amid such chaos.

I think that Christ’s gospel is simple, but like the Corinthians, we make it overly confusing, complex and complicated. There are many voices and lots of them just want to hear themselves talk.

I spent some time this Summer reading hundreds of near-death experiences. There’s a website where data is being gathered. The descriptions are interesting and there are some interesting consistencies. One, is a feeling of joy and love that is beyond description. There is a sense of a supreme being. Many experience a life-review, but it is not judgmental in nature, and that our life’s purpose is to gain experience. People who have these experiences almost never come back seeking religion, ours or any other. What they are left with is the sense that the most important thing is for us to develop and show greater love to each other, show more kindness, understanding, and forgiveness. I tend to think that this simple idea of love one another, which is Christ’s ultimate message, is really all we are here to do. We are her to aspire to be more like Christ and to develop his pure love, which we call charity. So to better love our friends, family, neighbor, and most importantly our enemy, we need to develop charity.

Is a structured religion necessary for this? No. But is it often beneficial in helping us and encouraging us and reminding us to love one another? absolutely!

[Martha]

mackay11 wrote:

I was smiling at parts of it. Then it got to the section that talked about the legitimacy of respecting people making choices to leave and worship and other ways, followed by the part on the issues in the history of the church and the mistakes of the past and starting crying violently. It felt like 18 months of pain and anxiety came flooding out. It was cathartic.

How could we, as middle-wayers, use and share this talk with other members who may have missed it? I suddenly feel like I want to “Hasten the Work” too. I wanted become a member missionary. Facing in not out. I want to share the best of Uchtdorf and educate the membership on the beauty of the gospel through his expression of Mormonism.

Let us all join together and follow his call to stayLDS a little longer.

I felt the same way–so much relief to hear a general authority acknowledge my journey and welcome me back to the fold; that I have a place to love and serve regardless of my level of faith. I think we, as middle-wayers do need to continue to share this message of acceptance. I was discouraged when I went to facebook and Bro. Uchtdorfs talk had been repeatedly reduced to one quote, “Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith.” While, I appreciate this advice from Bro. Uchtdorf, I hate to see his talk reduced to this one quote when there was so, so much more.

[Martha]

The other night we were trying to have family prayer with our younger children and my older sons who are not believers wouldn’t stop talking and doing what they were doing to join us. My emotional reaction to their rudeness was just like I was TBM again and it took me a while to understand why. I finally realized that although I am mostly not believing, I am still a Mormon girl. It’s my ancestry. It’s my culture. And I still don’t like anyone disrespecting that and if feel that my boys should also honor their background, even if they don’t believe. Even though you husband doesn’t practice, his loyalty may still be very much aligned with the LDS church.

[Martha]

broofturker wrote:

Ann wrote:

This site has been a sanity-saver. Best wishes and I hope you enjoy it. (May I ask about your online name? 🙂 )

Thank you. I feel so welcomed, and happy to find this site. I just need to make sure I set boundaries on time. Yes, you may ask me about my name. My brother’s medival fighting club called him turker. SO I am bro of turker 🙄 SIlly I know, but I am proud to be Turker’s bro.

Love the name! Welcome to the site.

[Martha]

Cadence wrote:

A few Mormons get involved in the world but for the most part they remain separate and naive to how the world really is both the good and bad. They approach the world from a position of fear which leads to isolationism. It’s not their fault really. It is what they have been taught all their lives.

I have found this to be generally true and certainly was for me. Through my faith crisis, I feel like I have finally joined the human race. It’s nice. But I don’t feel like I have to leave Mormonism behind. That would just be a different form of exclusion.

Cadence wrote:

I find it easier for me to believe nothing about the church as opposed to trying to believe things that there is no way to verify. I could be wrong and God may set me straight someday but until then it seems to much energy to try and believe all or part. There is A much bigger world than Mormonism out there to get involved in. If we spend our life trying to nail Jell-O to the wall so to speak, we will wake up one day and our life will of passed us by

I wanted to share a spiritual experience that was not an emotional one. I think these times are pretty rare. It happened at a time in my life when I was most religious. I was truly “thirsting” after truth and righteousness by reading scriptures and praying. I don’t know if that mattered to the experience or not, but that is where I was.

I had my best friend from graduate school visiting me from Pittsburgh. She had come to see me, look for work, and see my children. She is someone I felt I had been prompted to share the gospel. One day during her visit, we had many activities planned in town and we both had Polaroid cameras to take pictures. She had an expensive Polaroid camera she had borrowed from her dad. We visited the zoo and the botanical gardens and in the evening we went to the visitors center at the temple. I believe the Christmas lights were up. I distinctly remember a thought come in my head as we were pulling our cameras out of the trunk that said that we should leave the cameras in the car and that taking them would “detract from the evening.” While it was my own voice in my own head I clearly recognized it as not coming from me, but from Deity. No emotion, just fact. While I knew I should follow this, I didn’t know how to communicate this to my friend and while I remember, kinda sorta saying maybe we should leave our cameras in the car, my friend couldn’t see any reason we should and ultimately we took our cameras. I didn’t want our cameras to “detract from the evening” so I didn’t take any pictures. I remember that clearly. I thought God was telling me that taking a bunch of pictures would detract from the spirit of being at the temple. After walking around a bit, we went into the visitors center to watch one of the films. We parked the baby stroller and our cameras along with many others outside next to the Sis. missionary just outside the viewing room. When we came out, our cameras were gone, stolen right from the visitors center while the missionary tended to other things. It certainly did detract from the evening. Since my friend had borrowed the camera from her dad, it was especially upsetting to her and we spent the next day finding and paying for an expensive replacement. I failed in following this prompting, but I am grateful I did because of what I learned through that failure. First, only because of the failure did I have that confirmation that the prompting was real and not just a random thought in my head. Second, I learned that if I were to ever have a prompting of that nature again, that the Lord’s admonitions should be followed to the letter and not reinterpreted by me.

No tingly feeling, just direct guidance on really a small thing. It cling to that memory. It is special to me and I rarely share it. It doesn’t prove the church is true, but it is a proof for me that there is someone up above who actually has a personal interest in us. All other spiritual experiences have been of the “tingly feeling” variety, which are not necessarily less valid or important or less faith strengthening. I don’t know why I had that experience and others don’t.

I don’t believe the church in its entirety is true. I think it’s possible that is was once just a nutty cult created and led by JS, but somehow, someway some beautiful things were written and are now truths for me. So for me, all or nothing doesn’t work and the middle way is what works for me now.

[Martha]

opentofreedom wrote:

Quote:

martha wrote

I love that now I am making these choices according to the dictates of my own conscience instead of with an I have to attitude and I am at peace with the choices I have made so far. To find that peace, I had to give up the all or nothing viewpoint I was raised with in the church. It doesn’t have to be all right or all wrong and what is right and wrong for me may be different for the next guy.

Thank you so much!! I love it. That sounds more like the new way I desire to live. What helped you give up the black and white thinking? I think that is much of my issue. Maybe I am being impatient with my journey.. but the black and white thinking seems to be there and I have to talk myself out of it regularly.

First, know that it takes time. I think what really helped me is a philosophy I heard somewhere which goes something like “Think of the worst case scenario and accept it. Then move on from there.” For me the worst case scenario was that there was no divinity in the church and even worse, there is no God and no heaven. Until I accepted that as a possibility I was trapped and paralyzed with fear. At first, I could not accept that possibility, but one day it just came to me that this worst case is okay. I had 45 years of thinking that I had all the answers. Now I am just another regular person who doesn’t know jack. Ground zero is a good place to start. And what if there is no God and all I have is this one wonderful life to live. Just like someone who gets the news that he is terminal, really gets his priorities straight and really, really lives. I can try my best to leave a lasting legacy of love.

And with that line of thinking, the fear was gone. And I realized that it makes no difference in how I live my life. Questions of WofW or tithing become less relevant. No matter the destiny, whether one lifetime or eternal life, the ultimate question is, “Did I love much? Did I love my neighbor? Did I give more than I took. Did I build up others or tear them down. Did I make a difference in my small corner of time and space?

So, now I start all over back at the beginning with a desire to not rebuild my old faith, but to build a new faith that is right for me line upon line and precept on precept.

[Martha]

I am truly grateful for my faith crisis. It has allowed me to review what I do within the church and why.

Through my work, I recently met a single mother and her son. The boy attends the Head Start program and I found out through the Head Start employees that this little family has nothing. I decided that I could help the family and others if I redirected my tithing. I told my husband that I had decided to pay my tithes to local people (anonymously) and to organizations in need like the local women’s shelter. He reminded that tithing is supposed to be paid to the church, but I told him that I felt that God would be equally happy with my tithe as with those who tithe directly to the church and he agreed and supported me in that decision. I have no issue with answering the question, “Are you a full tithe payer?” with a resounding YES!

I choose to continue to wear my garments because I want to, not because I have to. Like Ray, they are just comfortable to me.

I choose not to go to the temple because that is not a place of peace for me, but I seek out other ways to find peace.

I choose to drink coffee (preferably iced), on occasion, because its yummy and I don’t think God cares all that much about what I drink.

I love that now I am making these choices according to the dictates of my own conscience instead of with an I have to attitude and I am at peace with the choices I have made so far. To find that peace, I had to give up the all or nothing viewpoint I was raised with in the church. It doesn’t have to be all right or all wrong and what is right and wrong for me may be different for the next guy. I wish you peace as you make your choices.

[Martha]

The pressure on men will always be greater, I think. But imagine this scenario. A girl at the old age of 21 didn’t go on a mission and is not yet married. In the previous structure, she might be asking herself if maybe a mission is a good idea. Bishops and parents will be asking this as well. With the new age structure. she could easily be a return missionary, maybe even expected to be a return missionary and a lot of her female associates will be RMs. There will be people including male RM suitors who are wondering why she didn’t go (e.g problems with worthiness). Musings about why a girl didn’t go on a mission will be more commonplace, not as bad as with the boys but certainly more so than now. And as soon as she turns 19, the pressure to go if she isn’t engaged will be greater. Post temple marriage, however, the stigma of not going will fade. There will be more female RMs which may create a minor class distinction between them and those who didn’t go.

[Martha]

Old-Timer wrote:

Members are not required to go through an endowment session in order to go to the Celestial room.

Really, I’ve never heard anyone talk about the ability to do that. Is full attire required or just a dress like the temple workers?

[Martha]

MayB wrote:

Now I am trying to see it as a place of peace and a place for personal inspiration and reflection. Apparently no one in my ward sees it quite that way. When I mentioned that some days I wish I could just go sit in the temple and ponder and enjoy the quiet and peace without being pressured to do ordinances, I was met with responses as to how selfish that would be and that we need to do the work for the dead, etc. Of course, my class is made up primarily of those in the 60+ age category who are or have been temple workers and are very dedicated to doing family work.

Anyway, I’m just having one of my bad days where I’m tired of the mental and emotional gymnastics I feel like I’m having to put myself through to keep myself an ‘active’ member. Does it get easier?

I think it would be really nice to have a part of the temple members could go without doing temple work first to read scriptures, pray, light a candle, write out names for the alter, and just sit and ponder. I love being in the celestial room, but after a session, I am often tired or have a headache and usually need to pee 😆. I really like that idea and I think there would be a lot of members who would like it too, even some of that 60 plus crowd.

My faith transition is getting easier with fewer bad days. For me, it didn’t get better until after I stopped trying to reconcile all the issues and I had to stop trying to get back to where I once was. My path is my own and once that stopped being so scary, it started to be fun even. Best wishes with your journey.

I think it is great that you are teaching Gospel Doctrine and I say stick with it if you can, but I have found my transition to be a lot less stressful after I asked to be released from teaching RS.

[Martha]

I know that using the word “lies” is pretty caustic and I’m sorry to be so negative, but that is where I am right now. I know that JS may have believed in his own story and therefore did not lie. But I no longer believe in the veracity of the restoration, any of it (disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my mind at any time 🙂 ).

I would walk away if I could, but I can’t, so some of my emotions spewed out. Fortunately, they are not all bad. Today while just shopping at the store and later while driving, I was overcome with feelings of joy, peace, and a sense of freedom and relief. Everything around me seemed a little brighter. I know I have a challenge ahead of me to find a middle ground within the construct of a church I believe to be man-made. It’s going to be an interesting journey.

[Martha]

HSAB, you are not alone. This very day, I have determined for myself that the church just isn’t true. I truly believe now that its origins are based on lies. I don’t know where to go from here either as every religious thought and idea I have ever had is based on Mormonism. I also have never liked the temple, other than its aesthetic beauty. I wish I had trusted my gut instincts years ago. In my heart, I knew something was very wrong. I am learning to trust myself again. I do believe there is a God who knows me. My faith crisis started the day I prayed to know truth. I believe he helped me find it, or at least the first steps. I know there is some truth and beauty in Mormonism, but there is ugliness as well.

I love my husband and need to find a way to make this work. I would like to start from scratch, but that is not a viable option right now.

[Martha]

Cadence wrote:

I would like to use another term instead of “faith crisis” it makes it sound like it is a bad thing. I do not see it as a crisis if you are moving from one level of understanding to a different and better one. Maybe something like knowledge journey. Sounds more like what I have been on. I am not or ever have been in a crisis over faith.

On another site someone used the term faith transition. I like that better than crisis.

[Martha]

Although not really idolatry, I have always been bothered by the practice of many LDS placing framed portraits of the prophet and first presidency on their walls. It seems to me that this practice contributes to the false cultural idea that our leaders are infallible. I use these pictures in FHE and I respect our leaders, but don’t want to put their mugs up in my living room.

[Martha]

church0333 wrote:

I don’t want faith to be that hard. I have faith God loves me but I want to see and feel that love on occasion. If the suicide of my daughter was just to teach me lesson then I am going to be pissed.

Church0333, after the comment about your daughter I went back and read your introduction. I am sincerely sorry you have been through so much. Having a son with bipolar disorder, I continually worry about the very real possibility of suicide. In my line of work, I’m also familiar with the effects of TBI, effects that are often invisible to outsiders. Faith is hard to hold onto amidst so much tragedy.

I too want things to be more straight forward. In Elder Holland’s recent conference talk, he spoke of God having only imperfect humans in which to accomplish his work and how frustrating that may be for him. I think much of the complexities are man-made constructs to explain the complexities of life, especially things we don’t understand such as what happens after we die or what happens to those who never learn of Christ in this life. I suspect Gods plan is really very simple, maybe little more than we came to this Earth to better learn how to love.

[Author]

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