[Martha]

Here’s my personal funniest SM xperience. This old guy falls asleep during SM a few rows in front of me and DH. Not just nodding off, but full out head tilted all the way back, mouth wide open, and quiet snoring. I kid you not, we watched a bug fly into his mouth causing him to wake up coughing and sputtering and swallowing the fly. We couldn’t stop laughing. We had to leave the chapel.

[Martha]

On Own Now wrote:

then I’d say the number is low… perhaps by the final judgment, there will only be 144,000

:lolno: Hehe

Thanks everyone for your estimates and suppositions. Very interesting.

[Martha]

I asked to be released 3 weeks ago as RS teacher. I looked up the upcoming topics of my Lorenzo Snow lessons and knew that trying to teach them would be too stressful. I debated with myself for weeks. I finally called my RS president and told her over the phone that I couldn’t continue in my calling. Thankfully, she didn’t ask why. If she had, I was going to tell her it was for personal reasons. I asked her to please call me if there were any service needs because I really wanted to serve in the RS even if I wasn’t teaching. That was that and no one has said anything since. Today will feel a little awkward because the new teacher takes over today. It makes me sad because I really did enjoy teaching, but I really need the time to figure how I am going to stay LDS and be true to myself.

I wish you well.

[Martha]

cwald wrote:

I like that Ray. And agree.

The problem is, is what you are saying, and the other people in this thread are saying, is not what is taught at church and from the podium at General conference.

Exactly. I agree with what Ray is saying too. I just question how much it really meshes with Mormon doctrine. I haven’t yet thrown out the baby or the bath water. I don’t want to walk away from truth and I don’t want to continue to embrace comfortable falsehoods. It’s important to try and figure out what the real doctrine is. But there are often multiple interpretations of doctrine clouded by the interpreters personal beliefs. Pure doctrine is very difficult.

[Martha]

Old-Timer wrote:

As to life without my loved ones, one of my favorite scenes from any movie is near the end of “What Dreams May Come” – where the husband thanks his wife for being the person he would rather be with forever in Hell than without in Heaven. It’s a powerful message, and it’s how I feel about my own wife – and children.

I can’t imagine God feels differently, and I can’t imagine he lacks the ability to make it all work out in the end. After all, charity is defined as the pure love of God – and it includes “long-suffering”. I think we simply can’t fathom what that term really means.

Loved that movie. I’ll have to watch it again.

I agree that we cannot really fathom the idea of long-suffering and ultimately Gods pure love and I believe or at least hope it will all work out in the end. I do trust in Him.

My whole FC started with a prayer for truth. It’s my one true desire. What I worry about is that I will create a belief system for myself that is beautiful and comfortable to me, but is not really truth. We do see through a glass, darkly. I just hope I can decipher at least some real truth amidst all the opinions and confusion.

[Martha]

I’m sorry you have so much to deal with right now. I don’t have chronic pain, but do deal with depression and anxiety and know how it can be when it gets bad. My antidepressant is very helpful. You say you have been doing a little better lately. Are there any changes outside of the medication that have made things better. Maybe pinpointing other factors will help you stay in a good place. It speaks volumes about your character that you desire to serve despite all the health problems. Talk to your RS president about how you can serve and your desire to stay connected. Maybe there are some doable service opportunities in your local area.

I wish you well.

[Martha]

I didn’t mean to imply that you were saying everyone will make it. Of course everyone has a chance. The vicarious work will be done for all. The gospel will be preached to all. What I am questioning is what doctrine says about when that chance is past. At death? At the time of resurrection? After eons in your assigned kingdom.

In the D&C it says the telestial kingdom’s numbers will be as numerous as the sands of the shore and they will no longer dwell with God or Christ. If there’s no progress between kingdoms, what is the point?

If I make to the celestial kingdom without my loved ones, then that is no heaven. Or worse, I make to a lower kingdom with my loved ones, but there is no family structure there. I can only have my family together forever if I and all my family members make it. Believing members don’t hold their family members to a higher standard, they just care more; there is more deep emotional investment. It is wrong to think that just because a family member was given the Gospel at one time, they will be judged more harshly and members do that sometimes. And if that is your main point, I very much agree.

I think that I am just moving past all this in my thinking to a much more universal and inclusive system where there are no kingdom divisions and there are no constructed ordinances that must be done by the living for the dead. One where we don’t have to believe in Christ in order to be saved, but rather one where his grace is sufficient regardless of what our beliefs were on earth, be it Christian, Buddhist, etc. etc.

Mormonism is one of the most expansive religions today, but it isn’t expansive enough.

[Martha]

The post is a lovely sentiment and I agree on a number of points. We do tend to be harder on our loved ones than strangers in most things including their potential for salvation. LDS are inclusive and universalist with our temple work providing saving ordinances to all. But I disagree that Mormon theology supports eternal progression for everyone to eventually make it to the celestial kingdom. The available scriptures lean more to there not being progression between kingdoms so that saving ordinances are only helpful in terms of how you progressed here on earth along with what you accept while awaiting resurrection. There is a FAIR article the supports what I have always been taught about the subject.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Plan_of_salvation/Three_degrees_of_glory/Progression_between_kingdoms

It does state that the church takes no stand either way and it certainly could be part of “things yet to be revealed.” I hope so as the concept of eternal progression for all (or almost all) meshes with what I feel is right in my heart.

TBMs are hard on their loved ones because they believe that the purpose of this life is to strive for celestial glory and when their loved ones are falling short, it is heart breaking as family structure is not the same in the lower kingdoms. They spend exhaustive amounts of time, energy and prayer hoping that their loved one will get back on the path before it is too late (reference Alma 34:32-35). They feel that they will lose their loved one as well as possibly future generations. Most people who question or leave Mormonism are reluctant to tell family members because of the anguish they know they will cause. And as it is right now, I feel that mormon theology better supports the sentiments of the TBM than not. I think it’s possible that many people, like me, feel that brick walls between kingdoms make no sense and want doctrine to match up with what this more charitable view, but right now I don’t think that doctrine is really there.

[Martha]

Quote:

Why is it necessary for the Primary President to be female (but teachers can be either sex) but the Sunday School president cannot be female (but the teachers can be either sex)? No change. But I will add to this list of nonsensical sex distinctions positions like membership clerk and financial auditor. A female CPA cannot be a stake auditor, but a man is apparently qualified, even if he can’t add his way out of a paper bag.

Interesting tid-bit. When I was a freshman at BYU, I was called to be the assistant to the assistant ward clerk and participated in the processing and recording of weekly tithing. I’ve never heard of such a thing before or since, but I, a woman, actually touched tithing money.

But a year or so ago I was released as Sunday school secretary because It was decided that the Sunday school presidency should be all male. I don’t know if the decision was a local one or church wide, but apparently the priesthood is required to pass out roles and ring the bell. :crazy:

[Martha]

Priesthood leadership in my area is made up largely by farmers. They think nothing of 7:00 meetings. I’ve heard of ones as early as 6:00. Just do what the college kids do for their early classes. Show up in pajama pants. 😆

[Martha]

Until recently I never really thought about issues of women in the church and was unaware of any movements other than a passing glance at a few web sites. I never noticed much oppression of women in church. Part of the reason is my own experiences. I grew up in a home where my father respected my mother and had an equal relationship. I married a great guy who respects me and supports me in whatever I do whether it is work or raise kids or pursue my education. I have also been happy in my roles as wife and mother and any pressures I felt in those areas were ones I put on myself. So my vision is clouded with positive experiences. Since my FC, my awareness has expanded quite a bit about LDS women’s issues. If I hadn’t been reading these boards, I would not have been aware that the first woman ever just spoke in conference. I pointed it out to my husband and he said “Really?” and was surprised. So I think it’s good that awareness of these issues are getting out. I looked through all the ideas on the list in the article and think they are all great ideas and really very reasonable (and that’s coming from someone who is only recently not TBM). I love the idea of a woman being a witness at a baptism or holding a baby during a blessing. I did not know about the menstruation issue for baptisms in the temple, but (funny story) my son did get a nasty bloody nose once and out of the water he went. Poor kid.

[Martha]

I agree Ray. We as members need to get out more with our neighbors offering unconditional service and work on breaking down the us and them boundary.

[Martha]

Roy wrote:

So it would appear that the latest edition of “Mormon Delusion” is on the D&C and compares the goings on of the times with the revelations being received. Obviously the slant is that these revelations were convenient and self serving. I do have a spark of interest because I feel like I have never had a good review of the D&C in their cultural context – all the SS lessons, seminary, and institute focus on the principles embedded within and likening it to ourselves.

I don’t want an anti-mormon slant but I would like a good historical study guide companion to the D&C (possibly to include revelations that didn’t make it in)- does anyone have any suggestions?

I have read the first three journals available through the Joseph Smith papers.

http://josephsmithpapers.org/the-papers

It has given me some insight into how people thought back then, especially JS. I’m sure some of the dates line up with revelations in the D & C. Each journal has an introduction that gives a historical account of what is happening in the church when the journal was written. I’m really impressed with the work that has gone into transcribing the journals and other documents.

Included in other documents are two books. Revelation book 1 and 2. Book one contains 11 revelations that did not make it into the Book of Commandments or D&C. I haven’t read through those yet and don’t know which ones, but it would be interesting to know which ones they left on the cutting room floor.

[Martha]

ElCid wrote:

In today’s society it would really be something for two young people just showing up and offering to help and ask for nothing in return. People would probably wonder who the heck these guys were? Folks might want to pay them for their trouble and missionaries would say no. Well then what do you want? We want nothing. I think people would be stunned by this approach today. The teaching of the gospel would come through their examples. The teaching of discussions would come as later. Not the other way around. This approach involves risks to baptism goals. Not all people would become curious and ask missionaries questions. The “preaching” of the gospel IMO is being accomplished. Preaching the gospel doesn’t always have to equate to short term goals.

Isn’t this what Ammon did? Serve first with no strings attached and the curiosity of gospel practices in action made the King want to know why?

Careful. If you keep coming up with great ideas like this they’ll call you to be ward mission leader. Really great idea. Can you imagine the positive reputation the church would get over time if we became known for sending our young people on service missions instead of proselyting missions. I think that ultimately there would be more baptisms with more stable conversions.

[Martha]

Roy wrote:

I also feel that I have arrived at a point where I am fairly impervious to guilting and shaming. Remember – I know that God loves and accepts me…

The church has made me feel guilty and inadequate for years. When I was a TBM, every talk on FHE or daily family scripture study was a continual reminder of my short comings. It was detrimental to my being. Church usually gave me a boost and motivation “to do better”. Having my sons walk away from the church caused pain and anguish and more guilt.

Questioning my faith is the best thing I have ever done. I am learning to accept myself with all my flaws. I am learning that children going on missions and getting married in the temple should not define their worth and goodness in any way. I should not define my worth and goodness by having children follow that typical LDS pattern. My faith crisis has made me see more clearly. I can see that it is wrong for the church to heap on that much guilt (and it certainly does, even if that is not the intention), but I allowed that guilt to be heaped on me. And I kept an extra shovel around just in case I felt I needed extra. 🙂 As a TBM, I didn’t feel like I could see my sons as wonderful and successful unless they were Mormons too, so I piled guilt on them as we’ll. I am so sorry for that.

I have had to start all over. I do believe in God and Christ. I dont know why I do, but it feels right and it is a choice I am making. Everything from the restoration on is a big question. President Hollands talk helped me to feel that if my current faith is my starting and ending point, then that is okay. Everyone on this board has their own faith foundations, and all are okay. His talk helped me to feel God’s love and acceptance once again, which I would not have felt if I had not watched conference. So as much as I have had aspects of the church be harmful to me, it is now helping me to heal and is still a positive place for my personal growth and development.

That’s where I am right now. Who knows about next month! :

[Author]

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