Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Rob4Hope wrote:
Probably. I don’t really know (and it doesn’t matter perse)…just cuz it hurts so damn bad.
Rob – I like you, man. And I relate to your frustration. We’re probably the stereotypical angry-stage-4 guys… but like you said… “whatever”. Just be with it.
My frustration with Church Headquarters is so great that at times it consumes my life. I was actually doing okay until the recent policy change, and I had the first experience where I felt complete and utter contempt. I hate that feeling. I don’t want to be bitter and cynical. I want to be understanding and patient, and try to understand their worldview. After that, I stopped paying tithing (at least on my half).
Do I think the brethren wake up in the morning and plan ways to antagonize “the gays”?? No. I’ll bet that most of them are infinitely kind, generous, and loving. I’ll bet that they would weep to hear the sorrow experienced by someone who feels alienated by the Church.
So what’s their problem? From my perspective, it starts with one simple thing:
THEY NEVER APOLOGIZE. Ever. They’ve never apologized for Mountain Meadow Massacre… let that sink in for a minute. We murdered 100 people in cold blood, and our leaders have never stood up and said we were sorry. And it just goes on from there. I’m talking about things that everybody agrees were wrong, like expelling gay people from BYU, sealing a black woman to Joseph Smith as a servant, denying black people entrance to the Temple, etc. No apology given, and in fact, our leaders proudly state that the Church doesn’t offer apologies. ALL THE RESPONSIBILITY IS ON THE PERSON WHO WAS HURT. The Church has an abysmal track record of victim blaming and shirking responsibility for words and actions, and it happens to this very day. Not two weeks ago, Elder Oaks issued a statement regarding gay suicides in the Church. Here’s his exact quote: “There are other cases where people have taken their own lives and blamed a church–my church–or a government, or somebody else for their taking their own lives”. If you feel inspired or called to fight against homosexuality, fine. But let’s not pretend that your preaching, and the way it’s embraced by the Church members who look to you… let’s not pretend that the dots don’t connect. It’s insulting.
Sorry. I don’t want to drag people down. I appreciate this as a place I can vent, but I’ll regroup and try to come back a little more positive.
Rob4Hope wrote:My question is is why don’t they? I have been baffled by that question for over a decade….WHY DOESN’T THE LEADERSHIP CORRECT THIS?
Recently, at a fireside, oaks told the attendees that he’s never had a miraculous visitation of any sort, and that he doesn’t know of anybody on the Q12 who has. He said his testimony came softly and subtler, like dust on a windowsill. Where you look one day and it’s there.
Then at another fireside (Boise Rescue) , he hammered home their apolistic authority, in response to losing some membership to Denver Snuffer.
I find it interesting that they can be so bold with things like the recent policy change… they can speak so confidently about their decision: “this is how Jesus wants us to feed his sheep”, with no reservation or backdoor just in case they misinterpreted that subtle dust falling incorrectly.
In short, they are starting to let the cat out of the bag a little, but it seems like they’re still gripping tightly with all the attacking they’re enduring.
I had something typed up and lost it, so I’ll do the short version. :thumbdown: I was not my wife’s first. She was mine. I’ve never thought twice about it. We have a fantastic unrepressed sex life.
I have a hard time understanding why you were okay with the idea of her being fondled, but now are devastated about the idea of oral sex. There’s not much difference.
You’re devastated by losing something that was a fantasy crammed down the throats of us “children of the 80s”. If you stop and really think about what you’ve lost, it’s nothing. But you gained a 14 year marriage with someone who loves you and who gave herself to you. Thousands (hopefully) of sexual experiences compared to a couple of minor things 14 years ago just isn’t worth being upset over.
If you’re worried about her comparing, then give her a good reason to forget. I’ve always found the idea that my wife had past lovers to be a very healthy and motivating factor in making sure I was always #1 on her list.
Good luck. It sounds like you’re in pain, and I wish I had more comforting things to say. It’s not your fault. You’re reacting how we were taught to react.
Quote:We should only follow Christ. Our allegiance and loyalty should only be to Christ, not to intermediaries.
Sounds like the first step to apostasy…
😆 😆 😆 Heber13 wrote:I’m just dumping some pent up emotions….no one is being attacked, but this is hot…
PREACH, my brother!
I appreciate the moments where I find peace and forgiveness with Church leaders; I really do. But I realize that finding peace is COMPLETELY up to me. The Church offers no apologies; and leaders never admit they were wrong; they speak with a confidence that’s unwarranted
and they know it. They openly speak about protecting the Church at all costs: even to the suppression of history, science, and perpetuating half-truths. They teach that criticism of Church leaders is wrong, even if it’s true. It’s not too unlike a child that’s abused by a close relative… where the abuser refuses to admit wrongdoing, and most of the family sides with the abuser. That child recognizes that the only path to peace and the only way to maintain their other relationships is to forgive the abuser and move on with their life. But then they have to watch as their other cousins and siblings cozy up to the abuser, and they see the telltale signs of abuse — they know that a few victims might be saved if they speak up, but it will come at the cost of alienation from the rest of the family and community. For even the most zen among us, being put in this situation is absolutely maddening. Not to mention unfair.
Whew, I feel better now.
Joni wrote:My husband and I watched the movie ‘The Cokeville Miracle’ a while back (it was well received in Mormon circles but I thought it stunk) and I just had to keep asking myself the question, Where was this God during Sandy Hook?
I have a similar view of the movie 17 Miracles. The Willie and Martin handcart companies only needed one miracle: for Brigham Young to NOT divert the supply team that was already coming to relieve them!
Heber13 wrote:Is there value in hoping God does intervene sometimes, trusting He knows when the right times are? Or is that hope just too much expectation that leads to disappointment?
Reminds me of a story I heard once in Elder’s Quorum – as a teenager, one of the Elders had a severely disabled father. He’d received multiple blessings but nothing helped. Then they got a new home teacher. On the first visit, the home teacher declared that he knew why the father hadn’t been healed – the reason was that the people giving the blessings didn’t have the faith to heal him. But the family was in luck, he said, because this new home teach DID have the faith to heal the father. Right there in the visit, he offered a priesthood blessing commanding the father to be cured. As you may imagine, the father remained disabled, and the home teacher left awkwardly.I heard another similar story of missionaries giving a blessing to a dying man. They declared it was God’s will that he pass peacefully and they released him from this life. Imagine their surprise when he showed up at Church on Sunday. He’d had a miraculous recovery and lived after that for many years.
These stories depress me, and I know they aren’t rare. They just aren’t very share-worthy within the Church. I can’t imagine how these experiences, where innocent and worthy priesthood bearers declare the will of God in full faith, only to have the blessing rejected… I can’t imagine how they can be considered a GOOD thing. If a priesthood bearer can’t feel confidence in declaring the will of God, then the blessing is somewhat pointless, because the only thing to be said is “Whatever God wants will happen”. If you feel comfort, it’s because God wanted it. Died a slow and painful death? God willed it. Otherwise, you’re going to end up with a lot of situations where people feel disappointment, embarrassment, guilt, and shame.
nibbler wrote:
I get the feeling that there are many people that would expect god’s one true church to be a bastion of conservatism, this going back to the idea that if god doesn’t change then why should his church?Yeah, I guess “change” is a loaded word, isn’t it?
I would argue (possibly to the choir here) that our Church was founded in progressivism and has these principles baked in, but somewhere along the way conservatism hijacked the message.
For example, “if there is anything of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things” … Combined with “we believe God will yet reveal many great and important things…”
Even if you maintain that God doesn’t change, it’s impossible to argue that society doesn’t change for the better. Slavery, women as property, democracy, science… Who better than God to help us identify those new movements that are praiseworthy so we can be early adopters?
By hunkering down in conservatism, I feel like we’ve missed the boat on many praiseworthy things, with arguably little benefit, unless you count all the men having the same haircut, clean shaven look, and wardrobe as a positive thing.
So, I get your point, but I think ultra conservatism is very poorly supported by our own Church’s teachings.
Minyan Man wrote:Just this morning I was asked to give a PH blessing to a new family I Home Teach.
As a result of this posting, I’m going to look at it differently.
Time to prepare.
If you’re willing, I’d love to hear what preparation looks like for you. I haven’t given a PH blessing in a while; I didn’t give my kids school blessings this year, and I said ‘no’ to a person in another circumstance (technically, I said I would stand in, but wouldn’t say anything). I get that everyone here is in different places, but how do you organize yourself around blessings?
DarkJedi wrote:OK, I do get what you guys are saying and wholeheartedly agree the leaders could be more forthright and proactive in correcting teachings of the past – but we also know that ain’t going to happen and we have what we have.
This is where I have to apply hope/faith… I think it’s critical for the Church’s survival for leaders to soften their stance on “Everything from an apostles mouth should be treated as scripture”. And we’re seeing it in other areas, for example, they’re admitting that they don’t actually talk to Jesus face to face; they’re becoming more open about history, etc.
Ironically, the way Joseph Smith originally organized the Church (common consent) would alleviate a bunch of these issues. IIRC, the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS) still follows this sort of process:
* Their “prophet” seeks inspiration and guidance as God’s mouthpiece
* When he thinks he received a revelation, he submits it formally to the entire Church for review. The revelation is dissected and discussed and debated heartily
* The Church votes (through a delegation) to sustain the revelation, on a paragraph by paragraph basis
* The revelation is added to the D&C, and can be removed later
Some may see this as weak and bureaucratic, but I see beauty in the conversation and debate, and creates for a more resilient Church. Once we admit that apostles are not speaking to God face to face, I think it’s reasonable to allow for healthy dissent. I believe we’d end up with a more transparent Church, and a more hardy and involved membership.
A man comes on a the scene of a horrific accident, and lacking the medical skills to treat her injuries, he offers her the absolute best gift he believes he can offer, which is ultimately an expression of his faith in her ability to recover and heal. She accepts his gift, and it likely provides her some respite, big or small, from her current situation. A beautiful story of two human beings connecting under extremely adverse circumstances. Not sure the point in debating whether it was, in fact, God’s hand or the paramedics that saved her life. It’s a cool story, and I don’t mind it being shared on Facebook. I just hate the comments that follow, from both sides.
Brian Johnston wrote:We can always switch to a crowd funding model too, if we ever needed to. The only thing that would do is lose the small tax-deduction advantage.
I’m okay donating through Open Stories, but I imagine there are a lot of people who would be uncomfortable explaining to their spouse or family why they’re financially supporting John Dehlin’s organization. I hate even saying those words because it’s ridiculous, but an unfortunate reality.
Crowdfunding would allow people to donate through a more discreet channel.
Thanks for fronting the money, by the way.
faithfulskeptic wrote:
Amen, brother! The God and Jesus I believe in would never counsel a faithful spouse to leave a doubting spouse to leave unless there was abuse or some other such thing happening.1 Cor 7:13-16 13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
It’s scriptural not to leave a disbelieving spouse.
nibbler wrote:
We really do have a serious cultural problem in this area. It cuts both ways, husbands separating from their wife over faith issues and wives separating from their husband over faith issues.Freudian slip? It does happen that women lose faith and their husbands divorce them…
Holy Cow wrote:Only when it’s flipped around on us like that, that we men really get a taste of how tough that must be for the women in the church to have polygamy hanging in the air.
That’s when I realized how messed up polygamy was (and that was like 2 years ago). Up until then, I kept telling myself that the ladies really like it.
LookingHard wrote:Her response was, “OK, then I promise I will do everything in my power to make your life hell if you do”
Like constantly quoting third-hand historical accounts as facts
Holy Cow wrote:My wife moved out about 5 months ago, partly due to my faith crisis.
Sorry to hear, man. Don’t get me wrong, I worry a lot about the possibility of the “D” word, but wife is actually very open-minded and accepting. But, as is expected, it’s been very hard for her to swallow. Her faith isn’t the naive type – it was earned with years of trials and difficulties. She’s read the CES letter and Rough Stone Rolling, so she’s not exactly sticking her head in the sand. She just wishes I could brush issues aside like she does.
