[MayB]

Thanks for all your responses. I’m not going to wear my garments just for the sake of avoiding an uncomfortable conversation. I just feel like that would be dishonest of me. It’s not like I wear clothes that wouldn’t cover the garments anyway, but as we’ve discussed before, it’s pretty easy to tell when someone’s not wearing them.

Old-Timer wrote:

How about:

Sorry, but I’m not tall enough to ride your emotional roller coaster.

😆 😆 😆 Love it!

My mom is actually quite passive, so the more likely scenario is that she won’t say anything while she’s here, but I’ll get a concerned email or maybe a phone call later when she’s had time to think about it.

Heber13 wrote:

Will she be at your place on Sunday? If so, are you going to choose to go to church with her?

Yes, she will be here on Sunday. We’re planning on attending church with her. I still go to RS to play piano every week and the rest of the family goes off and on. We aren’t planning on completely discontinuing our attendance until after our move in the next month or two. I’m not ready for the full-blown conversation and us not going to church would definitely instigate that.

Overall, my plan for the weekend is to just have a good time. We’ve got lots of things planned to do. I’m not going to bring up anything church-related and if anything comes up that I’m not ready to talk about, I’ll use some of the great answers that all of you have given me.

[MayB]

We haven’t really officially left yet, but Uchtdorf’s talk felt encouraging and actually made me think twice. Then I went to church yesterday. Our RS lesson and the comments made only reminded me that the church still has a long way to go before we could actually feel welcome and accepted in the way that Uchtdorf talked about. While I understand that change can really only happen from within by people like us actually talking and helping change attitudes, I just feel like my own well-being would be compromised in doing so. Maybe that will change in the future.

[MayB]

I understand how you feel Harmony. Ray has a great perspective on this. We can only hope that the more positive messages are being heard and implemented on the local level, and by staying you could be a part of that. Either choice is hard, leaving or staying. They each have unique positives and negatives for you as an individual. I don’t have any magical advice. I’m still winding my way through things, even though I feel like I’ve made my decision about my future with the church. Just remember to look for the good in every situation and weigh the positives and negatives fairly. There were lots of great things said in conference. Like you, I didn’t watch all of it, but I read summaries and heard about the not so great things that were said as well. Take the good and leave the bad, if you can. Best of luck.

[MayB]

I think Pres. Uchtdorf’s talk had many subtle, but important messages and implications. I only wish that I could see evidence of my TBM friends and family having picked up on those. So far, all any of them have seemed to take away from his important address was to “doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith”. I remember Elder Holland’s talk in the spring conference and how it held a lot of hope, but when it was taught in RS later on in the year, the message seemed to be boiled down to the part about trusting what you know and not worrying about what you don’t know.

I think I’ll read and study a few of Uchtdorf’s talks a bit more. While we’re not planning on full attendance, we will be attending for a while off and on and I think that many of his points are ones that need to be brought up in class discussions.

[MayB]

I hate it when they just show up at the door like that! I’m glad that your husband was good enough to turn him away for you. I agree that it isn’t a conversation to be had in that setting.

Everyone here is always saying to be careful what you share. I have to agree with that, especially as it sounds like you’re still transitioning and working through some things on your own. I would emphasize what you do believe and your willingness to continue attending with your family. Maybe even suggest a calling or two that you feel you would be comfortable with.

Don’t feel bad answering questions with “That’s not something I’m willing to discuss with you” Contrary to what we often think, there’s really no need to tell your bishop everything that you think and feel. Your faith is something very personal and you should not feel pressured to share anything that you don’t feel comfortable sharing just yet.

Actually, you shouldn’t have to meet with him at all if you don’t want to. When I notified my bishop that I was no longer going to teach GD, he kept offering/asking to meet with me to discuss history issues. I simply thanked him for the offer, assured him that I was okay and that was that. Don’t be afraid to say, “Thanks for your concern bishop. I’m doing really well and I’ll let you know if I need anything or if I feel like chatting with you.”

[MayB]

Welcome to StayLDS. You’re in a good place. Your percentages sound a bit like mine at the moment. The people here have wonderful and varied perspectives, which makes for refreshing and helpful conversations about anything and everything.

[MayB]

It was refreshing to hear Elder Uchtdorf debunk the popular belief that those who leave do so because of being offended, lazy or desiring to sin. His acknowledgment that sometimes leaders have been wrong was great also. Encouraging words. I hope that members truly take these to heart and seek to respect and understand those of us who see things differently than they do.

[MayB]

My responses:

1) If you strongly desire to be sealed to your second husband after death, then I think that is fine. I don’t think it will hurt anything. I don’t know what the next life will bring, but I do believe that God will allow us all to be with those whom we loved, honored, and served while we were here on Earth.

I admit that I don’t necessarily believe that we’ll be exalted in the LDS sense with the separate kingdoms and creating worlds with our spouses, so my thoughts and beliefs might not hold much water with her, but that’s what I would tell her.

2) I would tell him the same thing. If being sealed to your second wife will give you both peace and happiness and a strong commitment to each other, that’s great.

I think that being sealed to another spouse after one has passed away is different for me than being sealed to another wife after a divorce, while the first wife is still living and is still sealed to the husband. In my opinion, that causes a lot of hurt. Of course, my beliefs about the afterlife no longer fit the LDS norms as I mentioned above. No matter how you look at it, allowing polygamous sealings causes people pain. Not allowing polygamous sealings would also cause people pain and insecurity because we live in a society where many people will be married more than once, whether through divorce or one spouse passing away.

The LDS sealing doctrine and practice is one thing that really caused me a lot of cog/dis throughout my life, starting when my parents divorced. It was amplified when my brother came out as gay. Now my dad and his third wife are wanting to be sealed in the temple, which is causing issues for my mom. It’s not that my mom doesn’t want them to be sealed, but all the letter writing and back and forth with the PH authorities about many of my dad’s unfulfilled obligations are causing her stress. My dad is accusing her of sabotaging his happiness. It’s all very emotional and messy.

Anyway…sorry for the sidetrack there. I think the polygamy doctrine does more harm than good. IMO.

[MayB]

On Own Now wrote:

Old-Timer wrote:My biggest concern with the missionary age change is that Pres. Monson’s own words will be ignored and the new minimum ages will be considered the only true departure age for righteous members, bringing improper pressure to leave at those ages. It has happened and is happening already in some areas

I share that concern, Ray. I’ve seen it too. I think, in fact, that this is what drives me to be frustrated with the topic of this thread. I believe that for many YM/YW, if they believe that God himself set in motion the change to lower the age of missionaries by revelation, then it’s going to be hard for them not to see it as their divine responsibility to go at the younger age. I agree that Pres. Monson explicitly said that it should not be the expectation for people to go at the younger age, and I have no reason to doubt that he did so, as you said, to head off the tendency of members to latch onto that kind of thing. Yet, here we are.

I’m seeing this first hand with SIL. As you all know, my in-laws are very orthodox and when the prophet speaks, well….you know. So SIL put in her papers and will be leaving for the MTC about a month after her 19th birthday even though she has said, multiple times, that she has never had any desire to serve a mission. She wasn’t planning on serving a mission (I think she was hoping to be married before 21 so as to avoid that pressure) and made a point to let all of her family know, in an email, that this is the hardest thing she’s ever done and she’s not looking forward to it and will need extra support and prayers to get through it. This makes me sad. I’m all for young people serving missions if that is what they truly believe in and desire to do, but I don’t see that as the case with her. I’m sure it will be a good experience for her and she’ll grow in a lot of ways, but I just wish it had been a decision she came to out of a pure desire to serve, not because she feels like she has to.

[MayB]

You’ve gotten some great responses and advice here Jane. I just wanted to address one thing.

Janes now wrote:

Naturally I’m confused gospel wise and am worried if god will punish me for not marrying a member as in the temple. If we get serious I want to be with him forever. But he’s catholic. Will god rip us apart in the next life because we aren’t sealed?

When I first talked to my husband about my faith issues, he was worried about the eternal consequences it would have on our marriage. I was too, at first. Until I realized that the God I believe in is a loving God. He would NEVER keep two people who loved and served and supported one another through this life apart in the next simply because they didn’t go through the sealing ceremony in the LDS church. That just completely defies logic to me and contradicts what I believe the nature of God to be. I have extended family who aren’t members and it’s been interesting to me to watch their marriages. Almost all of them have been married upwards of 40 years now and they have great relationships and have raised great kids. It baffles the mind to think that they would be kept apart in the next life. DH and I have talked about this a lot and we’re both confident that our marriage and love for each other will carry into whatever eternity may bring.

Follow your heart.

[MayB]

I have to agree with Dax that women are judged quite a bit differently when not wearing garments. I’ve heard conversations where others speculate that the reason so-and-so isn’t wearing garments is because they want to wear immodest fashions or because they’re too concerned with how they look or their sex appeal. Sad, but true.

From my experience, it’s much easier to tell when a woman isn’t wearing garments than it is for a man. With DH, you can’t really tell at all. He’s always worn the crew neck style, which look like a white undershirt. He hardly ever wore white dress shirts to church anyway and under his colored shirts you can’t really tell. For women though, no matter how modest and appropriate the clothing, those lines are always visible. I guess that’s why I’ve been a bit worried about it. Sure, it might not be a big deal for young, single sisters who aren’t expected to have gone through the temple yet. But for me, a 30-something-temple-married-mother-of-4, not wearing garments could be quite the topic for discussion.

The bishop and counselor dropped by the other night because they had “heard some rumors”. I know it’s silly, but my first thought was that they’d heard I wasn’t wearing garments anymore. The rumors in question turned out to be about our impending move, which is still not completely set in stone but a few people in the ward that we chat with know that it’s likely happening soon. As you can see, I still have a ways to go as far as not worrying about what other people think of me. I have to constantly remind myself that what I’m doing isn’t wrong and that it’s actually been beneficial to me personally and really, it’s none of their business.

[MayB]

Old-Timer wrote:

Temple divorce rates are lower; non-temple divorce rates are almost exactly the same; Mormon to non-Mormon divorce rates are the highest of all religious affiliation rates.

At least, that was true last time I looked at the stats – which was about five years ago or so.

This would make sense. I know that in my parents’ case, one of the reasons my mom didn’t divorce my dad sooner (they were married 19 years) was because of the eternal implications that she believed that would entail due to their temple marriage. I’ve seen other couples who choose to stay married in circumstances that many non-religious folk would see as grounds for divorce mainly because of their temple sealing and the commitment that they’ve associated with that for themselves. Most of the time this is a great thing, such as when it is something they can work on or get help with and have a healthier relationship afterwards. Other times, it’s painful to watch because of one spouse staying in an abusive relationship that isn’t getting any better.

When you say “Mormon to non-mormon” do you mean members who leave the church? Or do you mean divorce rates of Mormons married to non-members?

[MayB]

mackay11 wrote:

Next time there’s a ‘big bad world’ comment in sunday school I might quote Elder Ballard:

“We must understand however that not everyone is going to accept our doctrine of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. For the most part, our neighbors not of our faith are good, honorable people-every bit as good and honorable as we strive to be. They care about their families, just like we do. They want to make the world a better place, just like we do. They are kind and loving and generous and faithful, just like we seek to be.”

Elder M. Russell Ballard

I wish I’d had this with me a week or two ago in RS. We were discussing obedience to the ten commandments and the teacher made the whole thing about our “war” with the rest of the world (who she claims are all being deceived by and working for satan). I was pleased, however, when one woman raised her hand and made the comment that even though things like casual sex(we were talking about adultery) are in the media a lot, the majority of the population sees cheating on your spouse or partner as a bad thing and that most people do have morals and are good people.

[MayB]

Old-Timer wrote:

The important thing, imo, is being comfortable with my own decisions and learning to let go of my concern for what other people think. It’s not easy, but it gets easier over time.

That’s exactly what I’m working on Ray. Maybe it’s my personality or the way I was raised, but what other people think has always been important to me. Now that I’m working on worrying more about what I think and how I feel about things, I’m seeing just how ingrained that habit has become for me. Even down to the most personal of things such as choosing whether or not to wear the garments.

[MayB]

Old-Timer wrote:

There are nine things listed in the original post, and we have discussed only one of them as being dicey enough to cause reactions. The other eight are:

1) Joseph Smith has flaws.

2) Don’t be superficial in studying JS.

3) We don’t have all the answers.

4) The absence of evidence is not proof.

5) Don’t confuse honest issues with unexamined assertions or incomplete research.

6) Projecting 21st-century concepts on 19th century people is misleading.

7) Don’t claim JS was perfect.

The wonder is this imperfect man succeeded in his mission. His fruits are undeniable and incomparable. (The church he founded has

survived and now has nearly 15 million members, 29 thousand congregations in 160 different countries, active members have fewer

divorces, higher educations, better health and live longer than their peers.)

If I can get eight out of nine things right in a forum like this, I’ve done really, really well – and if he had said only #1, #3 and #7 everyone here would be celebrating joyously.

Maybe that should be highlighted, and he should receive credit for it. Literally, he made seven points that are extremely positive for everyone here, one (# that is so-so and only one that is problematic enough to cause an uproar. When you look at the totality of what he said, we really ought to be extremely happy about it.

I haven’t contributed much to this thread, but I have been reading it with interest. Some of these points have caused me to think. I’ll try to put my thoughts into words and maybe some of you can help me out with your thoughts or perspectives.

#1-Of course JS has flaws. I don’t think any of us expected him to be completely perfect and I totally understand why these flaws aren’t mentioned in church manuals. I do think that they could be talked about in the sense of examining how his own human nature helped or hindered the work he was trying to accomplish.

#3-Of course we don’t. Nobody does. It is refreshing when we hear church leaders say this.

#2- Superficial means being concerned with only what is obvious or apparent. I don’t feel like I’ve been superficial in my study of JS. I’ve always tried to look at his actions, revelations, etc. from the point of view of trying to see the deeper meaning that he found in it. When I learned about his polygamy and polyandry, I didn’t just conclude that he must have been a sex maniac that wanted to marry lots of women. I’ve always tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think what bothered me most when i was just starting to learn more about church history was that I hadn’t ever heard any of this mentioned, not even in the most casual aside. There was no “Joseph began the practice of polygamy….moving on.” I think that most of us who study and find it hard to stay are not guilty of superficial judgments of JS.

#4- This one just feels like it’s trying to make me feel guilty for wanting any sort of physical evidence at all for the BOM. I get that religion needs to be taken on faith. And, technically the lack of evidence can’t be called irrefutable proof. It’s just that when someone says this to me, it feels like my concerns are being trivialized.

#5- I’m not really sure I get what this one is trying to say. If anyone feels like expounding, that would be awesome.

#6- When I was teaching GD, I worked very hard to study about the time period and the environment of the early church and then put the events into that context. Some of that is what led me to even more questions and issues and some of that led to wide eyes and puzzled looks in my class on Sundays. I’m not sure which concepts he’s referring to. If he means polygamy, well, 19th century people had issues with that too. It wasn’t the norm. Marrying 14 year old girls wasn’t the norm either. Doing this studying did help me to feel a bit more understanding about some of the zealousness of those early days and it really helped me better understand why those in the communities in Missouri and Illinois were wary of the saints. It also showed me how much JS was influenced by his environment, which I think all of us are and prophets aren’t immune to that in any way. But when the lessons on WOW, for example, tout it as being absolute proof of Joseph’s ability to receive revelation directly from God because it was years and years ahead of what any of them knew at that time period and I, in my research, find that not to be true…well, then it becomes an issue for me. I’m not saying JS couldn’t have been inspired to write the WOW, but I don’t like how it is put forth as “proof”.

#7-Don’t claim JS was perfect. True, I’ve never heard them claim he was perfect and it is refreshing to hear Elder Christofferson say that he was not. We are very regularly told that he’s done more for the salvation of mankind than anyone besides Christ, but that doesn’t mean he was perfect. Again, if we included some of his flaws or maybe incidences where he had to repent and maybe went the wrong way on things in our SS teaching, then learning about his imperfections wouldn’t be such a shock to some people. DH subbed in primary last week and the lesson was on the martyrdom. He taught the 11 year old kids. When he asked them why JS was in jail, they responded that it was because he was the Mormon prophet. DH gently educated them on the issue surrounding the destruction of the press and how that led to them being in Carthage. Small details like that would have been helpful.

#8- Yes, it is amazing that what JS started is still around today and that so many people are involved in the church and are doing good through the church. I can’t argue with that. I’d be interested to see the study that the statistics in this statement are taken from. I thought I read somewhere in my studies that the LDS divorce rate is about the same as the national average.

So, there are my thoughts on these points. I do think it’s great that leaders are starting to talk about these things, even though the tone might not always rub me the right way. I’m also really glad that all of you are here talking about these things with people like me. 🙂

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