[MayB]

Thank you for your kind words and well wishes. I still read StayLDS and will contribute wherever I can. Even now that we’ve decided on a course, I still find myself second-guessing our decision. It’s very hard to find your own way and feel confident going forward when you’ve been taught your whole life that there is only one way to happiness.

I know that we’ll always have some measure of association with the church through family, friends, and neighbors. I think that is a good thing. There are some things that the people in the church do very well and, as a whole, they are really great people and truly want to serve others.

[MayB]

This wording always bothered me. DH and I used to do sealings when we went to the temple, so I heard it quite often. It still bothers me. DH never even noticed it until I pointed it out. Now it bothers him too. We actually plan on doing some sort of “renewal of vows” type of thing in a few years on one of our anniversaries where we can say what we want to say to each other and celebrate the union of our two lives and how far we’ve come together and look to the future. It won’t be anything big or extravagant, but it saddens me that our wedding didn’t feel like it was about two people giving themselves to each other and promising to love and support one another.

[MayB]

Hm…I didn’t really feel like this addressed anything. It seemed quite defensive. He encourages us to study Joseph’s revelations and how he lived his life. That’s exactly what I did and that’s exactly what led me to where I am today….on my way out.

[MayB]

It’s hard attending church when you don’t believe. For me, I find it difficult to listen to the lessons and talks without constantly criticizing what’s being said, albeit quietly in my own mind. Although we’ll be ending our attendance as a family soon, things that have made it easier for me lately have been to bring my reading for school on my tablet and read that when the lesson gets a bit too much for me, focusing on the people there and the ways being members of the church has helped them, and finding ways to add to the discussion that challenge peoples’ assumptions and thinking in a very gentle way. I never say anything with the purpose of killing anyone’s belief. Rather, I try to bring up points of view that aren’t always represented.

If your spouse and family are TBM, then try to focus on how you’re supporting them and showing your love and support by attending with them and spending that time with them.

[MayB]

I like a lot of the ones SD listed. It would also be nice to hear encouragement to exhibit more Christlike behavior in our interactions with those that don’t believe the same or those who seek change or further revelation on matters that are important to them.

[MayB]

Thanks for your responses and support.

DarkJedi wrote:

Please don’t take this as being nosey and please don’t feel you have to answer, but are you planning to be a part of any organized religion? I’m just wondering what they might have to offer that the LDS church doesn’t.

You’re not being too nosy, DarkJedi. As of right now, we are not planning on participating in any organized religion. We still believe in God(although my thinking in this area is still evolving) and the teachings of Jesus Christ. We plan to continue holding family prayers and teaching our children stories from the bible and probably even some from the BOM (although we’ll present them as fictional stories that have good lessons to be learned rather than historical fact). We’ve also talked about having our own family devotional time on Sundays and continuing to regard it as a special day for family and God. This is the direction we plan to take. We’re going to sit down later this week (DH and I) and talk about our core values and come up with a list of the top ten that we want to instill in our children. These will be a big part of how we approach teaching them and focusing our own thoughts on religion.

We’re also still working on what to say to our TBM family members who will undoubtedly be shocked and upset at this path we are taking.

I must admit that it feels really great to be taking our own direction with our family and being able to discuss and define our own values and morals rather than just going along with what is taught at church for the sake of obedience. I can’t see the future, so I don’t know if we’ll ever be part of organized religion again. I’m not completely opposed to it and, as my husband says, “if we change our minds, the church will still be there.”

[MayB]

Roadrunner wrote:

I do think it should be a commandment that high councilors shall not offend the masses or give boring talks.

YES! Also Thou shalt end thy meetings ON TIME! Such a pet peeve for me.

SilentDawning wrote:

For me, it doesn’t matter if it’s a commandment. It’s a matter of personal integrity that if you accept a calling, you will follow-through on it to the best of your ability. If you can’t fulfil an obligation, you find somebody to take your place — or at least send advance notice of your inability to keep the commitment if you can’t find anybody.

It’s NOT a commandment (in spite of what Packer implied in the Unwritten Order of Things) to accept every calling that proceeds from the mouth of the local leadership. Nor is it a commandment to stay in the calling when it’s not working for you anymore.

I completely agree with you SD. It used to drive me crazy when my DH would accept callings and then never do them or do just enough to get by. Then, being the dutiful TBM wife that I was, I would end up doing the work. I tell you what, there would have been a few hundred hungry, cold and severely disappointed people standing outside a locked chapel expecting a ward X-mas party complete with dinner and entertainment on a couple occasions if it hadn’t been for me. Finally I called him on it. I asked why on earth he kept accepting callings and not doing them. His answer? He felt like he had to accept every calling extended to him whether he thought he could do it or not. Ugh.

[MayB]

Forgotten_Charity, thank you for that wonderful comment. You and I are quite similar in a lot of ways. I’m finally reaching the point in my life where I am following my own path and recognizing my own inherent worth rather than simply doing or relying on what some in the church tell me I should be.

Ann, you are spot-on! I did the exact same thing for so long. It’s so freeing to finally realize that I do know what is best for myself and that I should trust my own judgment rather than completely denying my feelings/wants/needs/etc. based on what a church leader says from the pulpit.

[MayB]

I remember being told this in seminary. We were also told, repeatedly, that we would live to see Christ return to the Earth. This is all just setting us up for disappointment, IMO. I remember the first time that, as an adult, I heard the youth spoken of as the greatest generation and thinking “Hey! Wait! I thought that was us! Did we screw up that bad?”

I’m sure it varies as to the degree that youth take this statement to heart, but I know that my SIL (18 years old) feels extremely justified in preaching to others and correcting others on religious matters and sincerely believes that she is here in this time specifically because she was so very very righteous in the war in heaven.

I agree that targeting the youth is a way to get them emotionally invested in the church’s plan for them (mission, temple marriage, callings, etc.).

[MayB]

I know exactly how you feel. I’m very non-confrontational myself. When I needed to be released, I mentioned several times to the BP that around x date you’ll need to be finding someone to take my place. He didn’t do much about it, and things came to a head for me emotionally and physically and so one day, after teaching my class, I went up to the bishop and just said, “That was my last lesson. I won’t be teaching anymore.” I wasn’t due to teach again for three weeks, so I figured that gave him enough time to find a replacement.

I agree with what others have said regarding no need to give specific reasons. Just a simple, ” I won’t be able to continue in my calling” is really all they need to know.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[MayB]

Thank you for all of your wonderful thoughts.

I’ve seen The God Who Weeps mentioned many times here on StayLDS. I was happy to see that my local library has a copy. I think I’ll pick it up this week.

Like I said, I’m still formulating my own ideas on God and spirituality. I really like SD’s suggestions regarding focusing on my own spiritual development by incorporating those traits or aspects of God and Christ that I identify with and want to achieve. SD, I also love your emphasis on service as a means of increasing spirituality and growth. Due to the craziness of my life right now, I don’t feel like I could jump into any organization and dedicate time there in any significant way. I am, however, making a more conscious effort to see the simple needs of those around me and to be of service to them in any way I can. As I do this, I find that I become more inclined to believe in some sort of higher power connecting us all together in some way. I also find great fulfillment in my work educating couples in strengthening their relationship.

MissEyre, the term spiritual but not religious has always baffled me as well, but I think I am now starting to understand. I’m starting to see spirituality as more of how in tune I am to my own spirit and striving to develop that spirit in a way that will make me a better person. Religion is not necessarily required.

I don’t have to see others as my literal spirit brothers and sisters to see that we’re all connected simply by being human and being here on this earth. I can desire to serve others, be humble, make positive choices,respect myself, love and forgive others without all of those things having to have any sort of religious motivation. In the LDS church we learn that every man has “the Light of Christ” within him. I’m starting to think that this light doesn’t necessarily have to be seen as specifically connected to Christ, but is our own internal compass that guides our morals and is present in all of us regardless of religious affiliation. I’m learning to rely more on my own intuition, what we might call personal revelation, rather than denying that intuition in favor of the counsel of apostles and prophets. As I do this, I’m learning to trust myself again. I suppose, for now, this is my view on my own spirituality.

[MayB]

(((((Southern))))) My heart is aching for you as I read your post. When I first brought up my questions and doubts, my husband’s first response was that if I went down “that path” we wouldn’t be able to be married anymore. Thank goodness he came around and now we’re on the same page. It sounds like your husband doesn’t know how to separate your relationship to each other with your relationship with the church. I don’t blame him. As Mormons, our lives and identities are so enmeshed with the church that it seems impossible to separate the two. Even when we get married in the temple, we’re not making promises to love and cherish one another, to serve one another, to stand by each other, etc. We make promises to God related to church.

I feel the same as you about garments and the sexist nature of things at church. I’ve made decisions that caused me great pain based on the “hearken unto thy husband” line I was fed in the temple. It’s hard for my DH to understand these things too because he doesn’t see it as a big deal.

Southern wrote:

He seems worried that I won’t be able to teach them standards if I don’t believe or hold a recommend.

This was something I was worried about. The church kind of takes over the teaching standards and values to children and the parents are just there for support it seems like. There’s a method called Value Based Parenting that you should look at. I’m just starting to learn about it, but basically you and your DH determine what your core values are that are most important to you and that you want to instill in your children and then it helps you learn how to teach those values to them in everyday situations. If raising kids LDS was the only way to teach good morals and standards, then around 98% of the world’s population would have absolutely no moral compass. We see good people in the world all the time. Maybe if you show your husband (in a very casual non-confrontational way) some of these resources he might start to see that you can be a great mother even if you no longer believe in the LDS church.

Southern wrote:

I just want to tell him that right now, I don’t want my daughters to marry someone that is taught that he is her spiritual leader and responsible for her eternal salvation. I don’t want my girls to feel like they have to defer to their husbands. I don’t want my son to spend 2 years teaching about a man and a book that he doesn’t know enough about to decide if it’s all true and good. I don’t really want the Mormon life for my kids.

This is how I feel too. My kids are still young, ranging from 10 months to 9 years. I don’t want them to experience what I did with my disaffection or whatever you want to call it. The Mormon life, as you called it, feels safe. Everything is laid out for you and all you have to do is follow the plan. The plan caused me to go against what I really felt was right for me. I don’t have any great advice in this area. I’m in the process and exploring what spirituality separate from the LDS church means to me and from there I’ll determine what role, if any, I want the church to play in my life and the lives of my children. I’m currently seeing a non-LDS therapist who is helping guide me through this. She doesn’t tell me what to believe or what not to believe, but helps me figure out my own feelings and find a sense of authenticity and worth completely separate from my LDS identity that I was raised with.

Again, so sorry that you’re going through this. You’ve got to find a way to feel like you’re being true to yourself. Continuing to pretend solely for your husband’s happiness is only going to make things worse for you and will ultimately hurt your relationship with him too.

[MayB]

I’m so sorry that you’re hurting. I second the advice to see a non-LDS counselor. I just started going to one about this and other issues in my life and already I’m feeling better and can see the steps necessary for me to recover.

I was a gospel doctrine teacher for the past 8 months. They called me and right after that I started finding all the skeletons in the church history closet. I can totally relate to your anger, although it sounds like you were much more sincere and invested in your personal views and relationship with JS. I finally had to quit my calling. Yes, I say quit because I didn’t ask to be released. I just went up to the bishop and told him that I would no longer be teaching. Maybe you could do the same? You wouldn’t have to be as blunt as I was. You don’t need to tell your bishop about your personal struggles. You could even think of and suggest a few callings you would be willing to do.

Not having to think about or read about JS and church history every week and then try to teach it to others in a way where I could still feel genuine and good about myself afterwards has lifted a huge burden and given me a little more breathing space.

I also understand the garment issue. I had the same problem. I even tried only wearing them periodically, but every time I would put them on I would feel anger and anxiety. So I don’t wear them anymore. Luckily for me, my DH had no problem with it and has even stopped wearing his as well. For you and your TBM wife, you’ll probably have to tread carefully. Again, perhaps seeing a counselor will help you to find ways to talk to her about it or to alter your own thinking so that you’re not feeling so much pain.

Here at StayLDS, we all know what it’s like not to have anyone at all that you can talk to about these things. That’s why we’re here. 🙂 I hope you’ll continue to post and vent and share and just let it all out because we can relate and you’re not alone.

[MayB]

Life_Journey_of_Matt wrote:

I finally crossed the invisible line in GD last week. My Bishop pulled me aside yesterday and said that I had caught the attention of my SP, who was in the meeting. The comment I made had to do with Joseph Smith and the scripture:

Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.

Now, I understand the desire to honor the martyr, and I know not everyone will agree with me on this (obviously), but I just don’t understand how someone could really expect to be able to qualify such a broad quantitative comparison. Also, I have a deep seated concern for people falling into the trap of infallible servitude (which the church does not teach, yet there is a collective vein in the church that really thinks that a testimony of anything Joseph Smith produced qualifies EVERYTHING he produced). I mean, that statement does put JS right up there with the model of perfection, Jesus Christ.

This lesson was the last one that I taught as our ward’s GD teacher a few weeks ago. I completely left out that scripture for the exact reasons that you stated. However, at the end of class a highly respected (due to his temple sealer status) member of the ward raised his hand volunteering to say the closing prayer. Then he said that he felt like this lesson wasn’t complete without reading that particular scripture, so he read it and expounded on it. I didn’t even respond, I was so angry. I don’t see the comment you made as being out of place at all, but the response from your SP is all too common.

I admire your integrity and desire to be true to yourself and your feelings in initiating a meeting with your bishop and addressing those TR questions that you take issue with. I also really enjoyed reading about your conversation with the Catholic priest.

Life_Journey_of_Matt wrote:

The priest told him that if he was sincerely seeking, he would end up where he needed to be, wherever that was.

This gives me hope. I continue to search for truth and for the place that I need to be, whether inside the church or outside.

It’s wonderful that you have a supportive wife. Be sure to express your appreciation to her often.

I have no wonderful words of wisdom or comfort, but I am grateful that you posted this and that I read it today.

[MayB]

Old-Timer wrote:

What I can say is that Las Vegas can be a wonderful place or a terrible place, depending on where you live, just like pretty much any reasonably sized city

journeygirl wrote:

Most of my family lives in Las Vegas, and I lived there my senior year of high school. I just wanted to reassure you that once you are settled, you end up having your own little area that you will mostly stick to, so you will probably feel comfortable within that area at least. I am assuming you will be living in the suburbs outside of downtown, so in those areas it is like a smaller town that you can drive into the big city if you want to.

Roy wrote:

I don’t think of Vegas as not being safe. I think safety is somewhat a state of mind. I believe that there is a prudent balance between being prepared and worrying. work to find your own balance in this area.

Great points. We’ll most likely be in the North Las Vegas area and from what I’ve seen when we’ve visited there (DH’s brother and his wife live there) and what I’ve been seeing in online rental postings, school ratings, etc. there are some good neighborhoods for us to look at. Thanks for sharing your experience Roy. I’m sure we’ll get used to things and find our niche.

On Own Now wrote:

As for the in-laws, this could be a great way to make peace with them about the Church. Or it could be a disaster. I’d recommend working toward the former.

I don’t really plan on bringing it up, but just handling it as it becomes an issue, which it inevitably will. BIL and wife have had to pretty much cut off contact with MIL and FIL because they wouldn’t let things lie and continued to preach to them rather than just love and accept them. Every difficulty that came up in their lives was due to their lack of faith or not praying, reading, or attending the temple enough. I wish I was kidding.

BIL and wife don’t have children and so they’re able to keep their distance relatively easily. I’d like for our in-laws to be in our children’s lives, attending birthdays, school and extracurricular activities, etc. Hopefully we’ll all be able to find a way to make that happen without them feeling like they need to correct us or talk negatively about us and our decisions to our children. Only time will tell.

SilentDawning wrote:

I would suggest keeping the communication lines open about your interactions with the TBM’s in Las Vegas. We can give you ideas about how to interact with them

I’ll definitely be doing this SD. You guys always have wonderful suggestions and perspectives!

Old-Timer wrote:

In the end, you have to do what you think is best for the family as a whole (including your husband) – and I have found that there is almost no way to know in advance what that is.

On Own Now wrote:

This has to be a decision that you both come to together, or it will drive a wedge rather than uniting.

– Once you come to the decision together, then you both need to be excited and put your whole heart into finding a way to make it work, and work well. You both have to seek out the adventure and excitement of it, look for the upside and shrug off the inconveniences.

We just came to this decision together yesterday. I’m confident that, in the long run, it will be best for our family. My husband has been struggling to keep his morale at work the past 4 or 5 months because of a change in management here and the reality that he’d be stuck where he is for some time while in his current location. He was even looking for a different job because of it. He’s with a good company, with good benefits and good pay for what he does. This opportunity is a big deal for him. Since the rest of us aren’t exactly tied down (no mortgage, full-time job, etc.) it only makes sense for us to go and support him in this. It will also be a challenge for our family, but I’m determined that we’ll come out of it stronger and better off. I plan to put on my happy face from now on. See?

Thanks for all of your great responses. I knew you’d all make me feel better. You always do. 🙂

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