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Yes, DarkJedi, there is a video like that. Admittedly, I wasn’t paying super close attention to it and my summary might be a little negatively biased because I was irritated by the lesson as a whole. The video clip came from a D&C supporting resources DVD that our teacher had. I don’t know how recent it is. It portrays a teenage boy who, under peer pressure, steals something from the store. He is later asked by a little neighbor girl if he will baptize her next week. He feels guilty about stealing and decides he can’t do the baptism until he straightens things out. He returns to the store, pays for the item and confesses to his dad. Then he prays and he is able to perform the baptism. There is also a young man who yells at his sister and belittles a smaller boy in a basketball game and then seeks forgiveness. All this is set against images of a dam and flowing water providing electricity to a home as an analogy for the priesthood communication with heaven. After the transgressions, the dam is shut down and the home no longer has any power. When things are set right again, the water starts to flow and the power is restored. We also hear a prophetic voice (not sure if it is a specific prophet) talking about how the priesthood power is given and can be taken away or something like that.
Glad you had such a wonderful day at church, SD. Mine wasn’t bad either, primarily because we fell asleep while watching a morning movie as a family and missed sacrament meeting. The kids said they didn’t want to go to primary today, so I went to RS by myself to fulfill my calling as piano player. The lesson was on the priesthood and focused on what men need to do to keep themselves continuously worthy and ready to use their priesthood and what we, as women, should be doing to make sure the men are continuously worthy and ready to use their priesthood, complete with a video about teenage boys temporarily losing their priesthood power for being unkind or stealing and then gaining it back when they apologized and set things right. I tuned it out and did my reading for my theory class on my tablet.
Then I came home and enjoyed another nice, long nap. Now I’m cooking dinner and looking forward to playing games with my kids afterwards. A good Sunday for me indeed.
🙂 Ann wrote:You’ve probably read “Lusterware” by Laurel Thatcher Ulrich.
Actually Ann, I’ve never heard of it.😳 But I love what you shared from it and I think I’ll have to track it down and read it through completely.mom3 wrote:Very last of all, if you leave, there will be hole on my bench. Early on in this transition, I grappled with the loneliness of being the only woman I knew at church who had the feelings many of us here share. It ached deeply. As I studied I came to find many woman who were in the same boat, only we were miles apart and would never meet face to face. Using the power of my imagination, I brought all of those women to church with me, every week. We sit together, we weep together, we hold hands together. We even comment to each other when we feel that I can’t comment out loud. Women on this board are part of my bench buddies, women on other blogs, and women who have passed on. I’d miss you if you were gone, both from the pew and from the board. I also understand and totally support any decision you make.
This is such a beautiful thought! How I wish we could all go to church together. Thank you for the examples you mentioned as well. It’s so good to hear messages of hope.
🙂 Welcome Haven. I found your post really touching and so much of it echoes feelings/issues that I have had.
Haven wrote:Everyone has their own experiences and feelings. It’s only been the past few months that I’ve been able to be honest and say that the church has contributed to some of the negative feelings I have towards myself. For me the church is such a loud judge that often I can’t hear what God is saying to me. Always in my mind are these old white men telling me I need to be better and not mess up.
Just recognizing that church has played a role in your feelings about yourself is a big step forward. Now you can examine what is causing you hurt and find a way to work towards healing. I feel like one consequence or side-effect of the church is that we become very judgmental, not only of others but of ourselves. We hear these talks about how we should be and we focus on all of our shortcomings. For me, I felt like all the messages from the GAs and the church in general were saying that I needed to be a better wife, I needed to have more children because not having more would be selfish, I need to be home with my children, I’m failing if I’m not having daily scripture study and prayer with my husband and my children and if we’re not having FHE every single week. The list goes on and on. That kind of thinking messed me up so bad and made the last 10years of my life much more difficult. I finally realized that all that pressure is total B.S. They don’t know me. They don’t know the specific needs of my family. I am a good mother and wife. I am a good person, God loves me the way I am. They’re trying to speak to a global church and I don’t always fit the mold that they’re talking to. Not every message is meant for me. I actually had to take steps to reduce the frequency of these messages. I don’t get the Ensign anymore. Last April I took a break from watching conference. Afterwards, I skimmed the titles and topics of the talks and read ones that I felt might benefit me. Maybe doing that would help you.
Haven wrote:I’ve always felt that as a woman there was something wrong with me because in the temple it seems clear that we’re a step below the men.
Yep. I have that issue too. I don’t go to the temple anymore. I might go back sometime, but I won’t do the endowment or sealings because they hurt too much.
Haven wrote:I also read a talk by a general authority (don’t remember who) that people who come to earth with emotional problems did something in the past life to deserve it.
Again, total B.S. The GAs have said some really insensitive things. I too struggle with depression and anxiety. Please don’t be ashamed. I felt that way and I took a long time before getting professional help. If you haven’t already, talk to your doctor or a therapist. There are medications and therapies that can help lift that burden.Haven wrote:So, as I looked at the mistakes made by these men I saw a double standard, at least for me. They are allowed to make any manner of mistakes and still be praised and followed, but I’m expected to live an almost perfect life and fit into a box at church and be happy about it.
Yeah, most members don’t see the shortcomings of the GAs, at least I never hear them talk about it. It probably has to do with all that “no evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed” thing. I also think we inflict this expectation to live a perfect life on ourselves. The atonement was put in place precisely because no one can possibly live a perfect life. God knows that and He has provided for that. My family and I are currently renegotiating our relationship with church and what we want our “box” to look like.
I don’t know if any of that helps. I hope so. I’m glad you found StayLDS. This place saved me. There are many here with great words of advice, acceptance, love and encouragement. I hope you stick around and post as much or as little as you like. (((((((Haven))))))) Glad you’re here.
hawkgrrrl wrote:Well, my plea is this: stay for me. Stay because I feel the same way, and I want you in rather than out because if we get out, the ones left pretty much suck.
Thanks for your great response hawkgrrrl. Like SD, I don’t really feel right about completely abandoning the church. I guess I just fear going forward as an unorthodox member because I know it will be difficult.
SilentDawning wrote:I might add that community exists in a variety of different places — not just the church. I have it in a hobby organization I am part of, I have it in a non-profit (some of the people in it invited me out for an evening, and it was great -with no social pressure to conform to any religious norms). We also work together pretty hard, which I find valuable and community building.
And then, after I simply let my family neglect our relationship (part of the fall-out from joining the church), they finally reached out to me and we spent some time together this year — twice, actually. This is yet another community to which I belong for intense, short periods of time.
Also, I find that the people I gravitate to all tend to have religious values when we get together. They value relationships, they care about service, they are generally honest and kind. They are usually well-educated, or at least have an educated mind. There is a lot of good character in communities outside the church. One’s like does not have to be about the church — it can be about whatever cause or community with which you align yourself….you will likely find the same is true.
I think I’ll follow your lead and start looking for other organizations in our community to be a part of in addition to church. DH and I have talked about finding meaningful service opportunities for our family and I’m excited about the possibilities.
I had a great talk with DH last night. We’ve decided to go forward with our initial plan to have 1 or 2 Sunday’s a month doing family activities and attending church on the other Sundays. When I brought up my fears about future ordinances, attitudes, etc. he told me I worry too much (which is completely true) and that we’ll cross those bridges when we come to them. We’ll be making a very conscious effort to talk to our kids more about what they’re hearing at church and what the teachings of Christ are and how we can apply them in our lives.
Thank you all for being here. Just two days ago I was ready to walk away from all of it, but you’ve shown me the good that can be in the church and convinced me that I should be part of that.
Old-Timer wrote:42
:ugeek: 😆 The answer to the ultimate question.Old-Timer wrote:On a more serious note, my answer would be to use your heart and your mind – to pray and think about it – and then go with what feels right to you at this time. I personally believe that is “the answer” – but there is a profound principle in saying that the answer to every question is “42”. Maybe there isn’t “the answer”. Maybe there only is “your answer”.
You might have read this post already, but, if you have, read it again in the context of your question in this post:
“Imagine If: A Poem My Daughter Wrote” (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3098&p=38586&hilit=poem#p38586)
I actually hadn’t read this before. Thank you for posting it. Your daughter must be a deep thinker. Our bishop, in an email regarding having read RSR, said “Maybe this is just part of your earthly test.” I immediately thought, “Life is not a test. It’s an experience.” I just can’t see this life as a test anymore. I see it more as a range of experiences that we learn from. It does feel like we’re constantly searching for something that is simply intangible.
SilentDawning wrote:Can you live with your husband or family not participating in certain ordinances, or having to give in to this pressure as your children advance through the rituals of our religion?
This is one that really bothers me. Say we stay, but DH doesn’t want to jump through the hoops to renew a TR and therefore can’t ordain our son and someone else has to do it. What is that telling our son? It’s basically saying that DH is ‘less than’ that he’s not quite good enough even though he’s a wonderful man and a fabulous father.
SilentDawning wrote:Another thing to consider is the dislocation it can cause to switch value systems on kids when they are young and forming. I broached the subject with my teenage daughter and it totally floored her, she cried, and then I backpedaled. Will they trust you again if you switch values on them midstream?
This is why the issue feels so urgent to me. My kids are still pretty young, our oldest is 9. If we were to change now, I don’t think it would have as big of an effect on them as if we were to stay for a few years and then ultimately decide not to stay. If we do stay, should we just be honest with our kids about what we disagree with and what we believe or don’t believe? I don’t feel like we’d be switching values, as you put it. We still have the same values and standards and I’m sure there are ways to teach those to our children other than church.
SilentDawning wrote:I would also consider what value the church provides to you. I asked my wife that value it provides today (it upset her), and the only thing she came up with is that it teaches children such as chastity, honesty, virtue, clean living, no alcohol, smoking or drugs etcetera — at great personal expense and inconvenience. She thinks our kids will go AWOL morally without the church. I asked what else it provided to use as adults, and she said she didn’t want to talk anymore…presumably because she didn’t have a solid answer.
I personally think the church provides associations with good people, although we know they also have their deficits such as judgmentalism and disloyalty when people have unorthodox ideas — they will sell you out in a heartbeat. But they are good people on average, often better than average, on average.
Right now, the one thing that I do see value in is the community. There are good people in the church and you don’t really find a community feel like that elsewhere, at least I haven’t yet. However, a lot of those associations feel forced and, like you mentioned, people can turn on you quick. As I mentioned before, I don’t fear my children going morally astray if we were to stop attending church. If that were the case, over 90% of the population would be morally corrupt and I don’t think that’s the case. People with other religions or with no religion raise good kids all the time.
SilentDawning wrote:One alternative would be to continue with those aspects of the church that are truly of value…identify what value the church provides and partake of it, giving in return what you think that value is worth…
Maybe staying for one of the meetings, but not really getting heavily involved in other ways. Or going once every two weeks and dedicating the off week to some kind of spiritual family event such as family excursion, longer-term family activity, or even reduce it to once a month. Contributing in ways that are meaningful to you through your labor or finances — as you see fit.
This is what I’m beginning to implement. While I feel like this approach could work for me individually, I’m not sure what the results would be for my children. DH and I decided to have at least one Sunday a month that is church-free and dedicated to family time. This Sunday we’re taking the kids hiking at a nearby national park.
On Own Now wrote:Just realize that everything in life is a trade-off. I don’t love to work, yet I continue to do so because I do love my house. Whether you stay or go, just be sure that you are putting proper value on the things you do care about.
I think I really need to sit down and sort out the things I care about and figure out where they would be in this whole scenario. Mostly I care about my family. I come from a very broken, turbulent upbringing and my husband’s family has been torn apart by his parents’ overbearing TBM attitudes. My relationships with DH and my kids are of the utmost importance to me. I care about honesty, chastity, service, kindness, generosity and trust. I care about the teachings of Christ and want my children to know them and follow them.
DarkJedi wrote:What I’m trying to say without rambling is, you need decide what trade offs you’re willing to make. If 10 years from now your wish you’re children had been taught the principles of the church, you won’t be able to reconstruct that.
Thanks for your thoughts DarkJedi. This is a good point.
Old-Timer wrote:Only you can make the ultimate decision, May – and I will support you in that decision, whatever it is.
My prayers are with you.
Aw, Ray, I was really counting on you to just give me the answer!
I haven’t been extended a calling since my views about the church started changing. I was asked to teach GD about a month before that happened and, as you probably know, just barely stepped down from that after teaching for the last 8 months. Teaching in the church when you don’t believe or agree with what’s in the manual can be frustrating and time consuming. I always had to spend a lot of time creating my own version of the lesson that didn’t step on too many toes but that I could still feel good about presenting. It took a lot of energy, but I mostly enjoyed it. It cause me to really dig deep and explore my beliefs and feelings. That being said, I don’t know when/if I’ll accept a teaching calling again. Definitely not during a church history/D&C year, that’s for sure! 🙂 I like what Ray said and On Own Now. Perhaps as you start attending SM again and explore the SS and PH class waters, you could be observing and thinking about where you would be willing and comfortable serving. Then, when you feel like you could accept a calling, just let your bishop know the areas that interest you and where you feel like you could make a positive contribution.
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SilentDawning wrote:MayB wrote:The bishop sent me an email this morning thanking me for all my contributions to our ward. He really is a good guy. I guess maybe we both were having a tough day. He asked me again if I’d like to meet with him and talk about church history issues or the book RSR. He said that he and many other members of our ward have read that book as well as others and that some found it to be a trial while others found it faith promoting. I can tell he really just wants to help.
My advice — be careful. VERY careful. I hate to say it, but even though they appear nice and caring, the majority of priesthood leaders are loyal to the institution first, and the individual members second. If you start sharing doubts that conflict with the TR questions, or sharing unorthodox ideas, you may find yourself on the black list for a very long time. And if you ever change your mind and want traditional participation again (and that could happen), you may find they make you jump through hoops that will only alienate you further.
Better to simply meet with him, give general, non-offensive answers, then work on your own relationship with the church that makes you happy. Do your withdrawal from GD on the stress factor rather than the your incompatible unorthodox views. There is this liberating feeling I have had in the two or three brushes with priesthood leaders like you are about to have – it comes from knowing that you preserved your ability to move in any direction in the church — back to traditional participation, or further along the unorthodox path. It’s quite liberating. If you have already outed your RSR influences, consider minimizing them and focusing on pragramatic reasons you don’t want GD anymore.
My most recent meeting with a priesthood leader involved a stake president who essentially, we sent away from our home without anything to go on. He left without any levers to control our behavior in any direction either. He left a bit puzzled and unsure what to do with us. We were in control of the situation, our agency, and commitment level. Individual needs prevailed and that was what was important.
I personally believe that while some priesthood leaders have the interests of their members at heart, there is too much culture and reward for people who are “company men” or better described as “church-centric men”, This interferes with their sincere desires to help individuals. And the more you share about how you really feel, the more disadvantaged you will be — particularly if the feelings you share are unorthodox. Apostasy is in the eye of the priesthood leader. And they are very quick to judge.
The other thing is that a Bishop is kind of a counselor and judge at the same time. You may start relating to him as a counselor, but if you cross any lines, his role as judge takes over. It’s a terrible combination of roles the Bishop has because you can’t trust him to have your interests at heart when he has church interests to protect at the same time — and the power to withhold things you might want eventually.
Not to worry, SD. I don’t plan on meeting with him. I was very clear with him that the reason I will no longer be teaching is due to the stress of school on top of everything else. Sitting down to discuss church history issues wouldn’t do either of us any good. I’m sure he’ll probably offer again sometime in the future as we’re planning to scale back our family activity with the church over the next couple of months and our more frequent absences will probably be noticed.
I just plan to take all this one little step at a time. I’m hoping that, as we pull back a little bit, we’ll find a sweet spot–a level of participation that works for us. We’ll see.
Thanks for all your thoughts and messages of support. The bishop sent me an email this morning thanking me for all my contributions to our ward. He really is a good guy. I guess maybe we both were having a tough day. He asked me again if I’d like to meet with him and talk about church history issues or the book RSR. He said that he and many other members of our ward have read that book as well as others and that some found it to be a trial while others found it faith promoting. I can tell he really just wants to help. I almost feel like I’ve outed myself now as an unorthodox member. This was my first step towards finding a new balance for myself with the institutional church and the ones I’ll be taking in the near future will probably be even less well-received. Although, hopefully they won’t be as visible. As Cwald always says, “The middle way is not easy.” I think I was putting off taking any action to align my new faith and perspectives with my outward actions and activity within the church because I knew the reactions I would get from others would make it difficult and even painful at times.
I know I say it a lot, but I’m so grateful that you all are here.
I think waiting for an answer is the way to go. Assuming or expecting someone to do something just because you asked them to feels a bit arrogant to me. It also shows a lack of respect or interest in the other person’s feelings or opinions. When someone just tells me to do something without asking if I’m willing or able to, I’m much less inclined to actually do it. At this point in my life, I find that when I do wear them, I experience a lot of anxiety and negativity in my thoughts. I’ve never been able to really feel any spiritual connection to them, even when I was a TBM. For me, not wearing them actually makes me feel more free and positive. Thanks for all of your great, thoughtful responses. Many of you mentioned my husband just wanting me to be happy. I think that is really at the core of it. He sees me trying to figure things out and hears me venting my frustrations or talking about church issues and he sees that it’s causing me pain. I appreciate the thoughts on the differences between men and women in communicating and problem-solving. I can appreciate that he’s trying to fix what he sees as my problem by pushing for decisions and action, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it, right? Roy wrote:I haven’t heard anything really enjoyable for you in this post about church participation. I think “why do you do it?” is a valid question. If it is out of a sense of duty to others – then I’m not sure that would be a big enough motivation for me (your own internal need balance may be different than mine.) I feel pretty strongly that investing more into a relationship than one receives is unsustainable over the long term. It sounds like you are already working to limit the organizational demands upon your life. Maybe you should plan 1 sunday per month without church and see how that goes – you would still be considered active and it would give you a chance to check out the non-church sunday.
I think we will start planning one Sunday a month to be church-free and see how it goes. You’re right, Roy. I don’t enjoy church at all right now. I don’t feel any spiritual benefit from it, which my old TBM self would say is all my fault. Maybe I’m just burned out. I feel like I need to step back a bit to find some perspective and figure out what relationship I want to have with the church.
Southern wrote:You probably don’t want to hear this, but I am a little jealous. Your husband is so supportive and understanding. You can talk about this stuff. I married young as well, have 4 kids, super-righteous parents, family, in-laws, live in Utah, etc. I don’t believe the church is true anymore, maybe some of it is, but we’re def not the one true church. I don’t know if there is a God, or if we can know such a thing. Anyway, for the past year, I’ve still been going to church and teaching primary every Sunday, teaching my kids, trying to talk to my husband, but it’s getting harder to keep up the life that we used to live. The hardest part is that dh went through a similar faith crisis a few years ago, didn’t feel comfortable talking to me about it, and came through with a stronger faith than ever. I honestly have no idea how he did that. He tries to be understanding, but I’m afraid that he’s mostly just waiting for me to get through this and come around to his way of thinking again.
I don’t even know that I want things to change that much. I just don’t want to have to raise my own children with the level of orthodoxy that I was raised with, or that we were planning on when we got married. I feel like I’m so enmeshed in the church, it would be hard to leave completely (plus it would kill my parents), but I hope that if my kids don’t believe, that it will be easier for them to slip away. Am I a huge hypocrite or what?
Southern, I feel like we’re kindred spirits! I’m sorry that your husband isn’t being more understanding and supportive with you. I was actually very surprised that my husband has been so great. He didn’t take it too well at first, but he came around pretty quick and has been wonderful ever since. I have the same concerns about my children as you do. I worry about the way some things are being taught to them, even in primary. I don’t want them to experience some of the things I did or to think the way I used to think or to judge themselves and others the way I used to. I wish there were such a thing as casual church participation, but it seems like if you’re not 100% drinking the kool-aid you’re labeled as inactive or unworthy. Leaving completely, for us, would cause huge family strain and stress due to ultra-TBM in-laws. I know exactly how you feel.
