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I’m so glad that you finally got your ADD diagnosed and are treating it. I too am discovering how much difference one little pill can make in my battle against depression. I knew that it ran in my family and I knew I struggled with it from time to time, but I always avoided medication due to the stigma and judgment of others. I finally gave in about a month ago and got a prescription from my doctor. I’m living in a whole new world! I’m having a hard time staying as well. As Ray said,
Quote:It might be harder to build one’s own faith, but I believe it is far more empowering and “progressive”.
I’m so new to this that sometimes I don’t feel as if there is anything left to build my own faith around, but I do feel empowered by looking at things more objectively through my own lens and not one that someone else has told me to use.
I hope you’ll continue to move forward.
Hello Hope. I’m pretty new here as well. I’ve found this site to be a wonderful source of support and information. My oldest son, only 9 years old, is already feeling the pressure to go on a mission from primary and from his grandparents as well. It’s been a source of anxiety and stress for him already! Reassuring him that he can still grow up to be a good man and that we will still love him if he doesn’t go on a mission has been a challenge. I keep telling him that he doesn’t have to make that decision now, but then he gets the opposite message from church and gets upset all over again. I’m glad to hear that you love and support your sons. As others have said, be sure to keep those immediate family relationships in mind as you navigate this strange new world where not everything is as we were taught. Welcome. On Own Now wrote:MayB wrote:maybe, for her, the traditional gender roles are fulfilling and all she ever wants from life
MayB… I’m going to pick on your wording just a little here. I don’t believe you meant it the way you said it, based on the rest of your post. In fact, I’ve really enjoyed reading your thoughts on this thread. But, I think it’s a good opportunity to talk about how to make our attitudes have value in the Church.I think it’s really important not to take sides… not to assume that the way we do something is the
rightway. That’s what started this thread out… somebody else talking that way. It’s crucial for us, since we represent somewhat of a dissenting voice to the norms of the Church, to talk in terms that validate individual choice and diversity. Saying things like “all she wants from life” is just switching sides without expanding the tent. I’ve heard that exact same phrase used pejoratively against women who stay at home with the kids and women who seek a career. My wife was a stay-at-home mom for several years while our kids were young. I know very liberal non-LDS people that have done this same thing. There is nothing wrong or second-class about it. It’s just as valid as having the dad stay at home or having both parents work and the kids in daycare or having both adults work and having no kids. If I could go back to one time in my life and live there for the rest of time, I’d pick that time when we had all our young kids at home, and before my wife went to work outside the home. It was a tough time in a lot of ways, but it was a very rewarding time. I know my wife feels the same way, because she has told me so. People who choose one lifestyle over another are not superior or inferior. It’s their choice and their life. If it works for them, great. It probably will work for others as well. The purpose for expanding the tent is to include others previously kept out, not to kick out the ones already in it. The Church culture of assuming one and only one lifestyle is the ideal is what is irksome. We need to strive FOR diversity, not AGAINST one particular lifestyle.
You’re right. It was a poor choice of words on my part. I was trying to say that while her experience and feelings are valid, presenting them as a one-size-should-fit-all sort of thing can be damaging to others. But i can see now that it sounded more like an attack on those who choose and love that lifestyle. thank you for helping me see that. i’ll be more careful in the future.
I’m a huge supporter of families doing what they feel is right for their situation. I have been a stay at home mom for 10 years. At first it was because I was trying to fit the good Mormon wife mold and I had a very hard time with it. Once I started to just be myself and feed those parts of my identity that I had been starving out trying to fit the expectation, I began to enjoy my children more and my marriage thrived as well. We all need the freedom to recognize and nurture our individuality.
Old-Timer wrote:I am the controlling agent in my relationship to the Church, so I am able to get the good out of it without being subject to the bad (or most of it).
I am an “agent unto myself”, as the Book of Mormon says I am supposed to be.
I act and don’t allow myself (usually) to be acted upon.
I am the subject in the relationship, not the object.
The Church doesn’t own me; I own it.
I am Mormon to the core – but the primary focus is on
“I am”not “Mormon”. This is exactly what I’m working on. I felt much the same way as you, Tim. My husband, children, our parents, grandparents, great-grandparents all are or were members of the church. I was very much a TBM. Then I started learning about church history, reading actual facts and seeing the church in a different light. At first, I thought all was lost. I didn’t think I could stay. The wonderful people on this site have been, and continue to be, helping me find the good and be okay with worshiping in my own way. I was very worried about what would be best for my young children. There’s a thread I started here called “What’s best for the kids?” where I got some great insight and advice on how to be a more proactive parent and use my new way of seeing things to help my children better navigate what some see as the more negative or damaging aspects of the church.
Good luck to you on your journey!
DevilsAdvocate wrote:It definitely irritates me to hear some of the ideas spread in the Church like the traditional Mormon ideal that gender roles should supposedly be similar to the way they were in the 1950s as if women were mostly only meant to be a wife, mother, and homemaker and they should be happy to just leave most of the serious education, work, leadership, decision making, etc. to the men
YES! Drives me crazy because I tried so hard for years to fit this mold that they told me should make me happy and I was miserable.
Roy wrote:I do believe that women can sometimes be the most militant in enforcing female gender roles.
So true. I found this very evident during the wear pants to church day campaign. I didn’t wear pants that day, but since then I have three or four times. One Sunday, when I was not wearing pants, a different RS teacher mentioned how it makes her so sad to see so many women not embracing their divinity and wanting to do things like wearing pants to church to be more like the men. Ugh.
Also, Roy, I loved what Ben Affleck said about his marriage. Like others mentioned, for some people the marriage relationship may come very easily for them. But for many others, there is definite work involved. When did working at something become a negative thing? Any relationship takes some effort to maintain and grow, but if we call that effort ‘work’, somehow everyone thinks that there is something very wrong. For the first five or six years of my marriage, almost every single day felt like work. We got married young and we’re opposites in a lot of ways. We also were trying to live up to the high expectations placed on us by my husband’s super righteous parents. I could write a very lengthy post about how my mother-in-law tore me down and nearly destroyed our relationship with her “support” and “guidance”. We finally realized that reading scriptures daily, attending the temple weekly, and doing our HT and VT and fulfilling our callings weren’t bringing us closer together and judging each other by the standards that the church said we should find in a temple-worthy spouse, male or female, was causing more hurt to our relationship. I’m happy to report though that now my husband and I have a fabulous relationship! We get along great. We value each others’ different opinions. We understand each other and we have a lot of fun together. Our love is stronger than I ever thought it could be.
Mackay11, I do plan to mix in some quotes from GA’s in my 5th Sunday lesson so as not to rock any boats too much or anything. I’m excited and a bit terrified at the same time to teach this class. I usually teach couples who want to learn something that will benefit their relationship and have sought out that education. Teaching an audience with such a wide range of situations and experiences as there are in my ward will be interesting. My husband and I gave talks a few months ago and my topic was “Strengthening Marriage and Being the Ideal Partner”. We were both honest in our talks about our marriage and how we’ve had to work hard for what we have and that trying to be an ideal partner for your spouse or expecting them to be your ideal can sometimes be damaging. We got great responses from most of the ward, but there were a few of the elderly couples who didn’t care for our talks much. I guess we’ll just have to see.
On Own Now wrote:This is a simple case of generalizing one’s own experience. I wouldn’t categorize my relationship with my wife as one that I have ever had to “work at”. It’s very easy to project that outward and say that successful couples should [insert what has made my marriage successful]. The fact is that it isn’t the same for everyone… not even close.
I think this is exactly what happened. Perhaps, for her, marriage has been easy and always very rewarding and maybe, for her, the traditional gender roles are fulfilling and all she ever wants from life. I guess I just wish that our teachers in church settings would consider the wide range of experiences and situations of their audience.
AngryMormon wrote:What does not having to work hard on your marriage and reinforcing sexist stereotypes have to do with Jesus, The Book of Mormon, The Bible, the Sacrament, Joseph Smith etc… ? I wish we would talk about those things on Sunday instead of unnecessary polarizing rhetoric.
Yes! Yes! Yes! Maybe it’s just me, but it seems like most of the lessons lately focus on things like tithing, temple attendance, family, marriage, WoW, etc. I’d love to hear more lessons on emulating Christ with more scripture reading and less conference talk reading.
Good question Cadence. I think it’s the belief in the eternal nature of families and the way the church is always focused on strengthening the family that makes people say that. Sometimes I see the church’s constant teaching and reinforcement of the importance of the traditional family to be more hurtful than friendly to a lot of members. In our society there are so many variations in family structure that to teach that one is more highly esteemed than any others can cause pain to those who, through no fault of their own, are part of a different structure. When I was 15 years old my parents divorced. I remember thinking that meant that our family would never be able to be together in eternity. A few years later, my oldest brother came out as a homosexual, further reinforcing this idea that we would never get to see him in the next life. My father still doesn’t speak to him or allow him in his home because he’s remarried and doesn’t want that “influence” around his step-children. It seems that this “war on the family” creeps into almost every lesson I hear at church lately too. Somehow, our lesson about the plan of salvation became a discussion on the many ways Satan is trying to destroy families and how that is his main target and mission here on Earth. Only a passing mention of the atonement of Christ and how it makes the whole plan possible.
All the lessons on marriage usually carry guilt-inducing messages as well. I work in family education and our bishop recently asked me to teach a combined RS/PH meeting about marriage. I was delighted to hear that he wants me to focus on research-based methods for improving relationships rather than the usual lessons on how our marriage will be wonderful as long as we check-off our church to-do lists together. Home teaching? Check! Temple attendance? Check! Paying our tithing? Check! I feel closer to my spouse already!
🙄 Anyway…sorry to ramble and rant. I don’t really see the church as being any more family friendly than any other religion. We sure talk about it a lot more though and I suppose people view some of the programs as being more family focused. I don’t know. For me, the church’s “focus on the family” has been more hurtful than helpful.
Thank you for bringing this post up to the top. I haven’t read the books, but I love the movies. My son is reading them and I’ve been meaning to as well. These are great analogies. When I go to church now, I do feel like I am seeing things that no one else can see or perhaps just in a different light than everyone else. I agree with Ray that the pressure will depend on where they are, their own family, ward, etc. When I heard the announcement I was actually a bit sad. My sister-in-law is turning 19 this December. She’s worked hard in high school and done early college. She had everything planned out so that she would finish her teaching degree in the next year and a half to two years and start teaching school and working towards a master’s degree. Not long after the announcement, she sent out an email to her family members saying that even though she has “never wanted to be a missionary” and this will be the “hardest thing” she’s ever had to do, she’s going to be putting in her papers and leaving for a mission as soon as she can. She asked us all to pray for her to be strong enough to follow through with her mission. For her, I know the pressure is primarily coming from her parents. She’s the youngest and all three of her older brothers and her older sister have served missions. Her parents are the type that take every word from the pulpit as the direct word of God. I know from talking to her that she was planning to finish school, teach, hopefully get married and start a family. A mission was never in the picture for her before. I’m a bit slow getting back on here, but I wanted to thank you all for your comments and support. I’ve always been the one to initiate temple visits, so we haven’t been in a long time now. But maybe someday soon we’ll go and I’ll ask to sit in the celestial room for a while. I’m working on walking my own path at church and not stepping on too many toes as I do so. It can be difficult to keep my opinions to myself. I’m so glad I found this site. It’s so good to know that others have been or are now going through the same kinds of things. 🙂 My husband is a lifelong member, returned missionary and we were married in the temple. I wouldn’t really describe him as a TBM though. He’s never really ‘magnified’ any of his callings, although he never turns one down. He doesn’t attend priesthood meeting or activities or do his home teaching and he only occasionally stays for Sunday school. He always sleeps through general conference and I never see him studying scriptures or praying on his own. So I was really surprised at his reaction when I went to him with my faith issues and his first response was to tell me that if I were to “go down that road” meaning inactivity or leaving the church, it would probably mean the end of our marriage. Now I realize that was just a gut reaction to what we’ve been taught all of our lives. It’s so drilled into us in church that the only way to be with your spouse after death is to be sealed in the temple and to live as a faithful, active, tithing-paying, temple-going member for the rest of our lives that the first reaction to one spouse having doubts or questions is a fear that you won’t be together for eternity. We’ve since had several more conversations in which I reassure him that our marriage is the most important thing to me and that I don’t believe God will keep us separated for all of eternity just because one or the other isn’t active in the church. He’s also reassured me that he will be by my side no matter what decisions I may make or where my ‘path’ may take me. I think he was just worried that the church was what held our marriage together because in some of our early years it had been. We’d gone through things where the only reason he stayed and we worked through it was because of our belief in eternal families. Now he can see that our marriage, like you mentioned, is separate from the church and is more important.
I think it took a lot of courage for your wife to bring up her fears with you. All you can do is reassure her of your love for her and for your son and that you’re not going to turn into an abusive alcoholic husband and father just because you’re not active. You’re still you.
I think I saw you mention this somewhere else, but do your best not to steal your wife’s “magic”. My husband offered to study things out with me and then make a decision together. Initially, I thought that would be great. But as we’ve had small conversations about various topics and issues with the church, his defensiveness is telling me that he’s not ready and I don’t want to be the one to throw him down the rabbit hole, so to speak.
Anyway, I wish you the best of luck. I know these conversations are difficult to have, but they will be the conversations that build understanding and emotional intimacy between you and your wife.
Congratulations on the birth of your son! Parenthood is such an amazing and challenging adventure. Your best friend’s dad sounds exactly like my in-laws. I have four children, two of them boys, and every time they see or talk to my husband’s parents there is some mention of a mission. All of their messages to my kids in their birthday cards are about how they are so proud of them going to church and how one day they’ll hold the priesthood or get married in the temple. It drives me nuts. I worry that my children will see their grandparents’ love for them as conditional to their “worthiness” which is exactly how my husband felt growing up. Anyway, that’s a whole other story. What I’m trying to say is that I know how you feel. I too worry about the messages they hear at church.
It sounds like you read my post about what is best for the kids. You probably also read that my 9 year-old is becoming very aware and upset by the constant pressure to serve a mission. I love Ray’s advice about keeping communication open and being sure that they understand that they can take the good and leave the bad. I also agree that it’s to your advantage that you’re thinking about this now as opposed to when your son is older and has already been attending church for some time.
wuwei wrote:“if we don’t believe that much that’s being taught, why do we go?” being asked. And that’s the one I have trouble answering.
This is where I have trouble too. I’m trying to take it one conversation at a time.
Roy wrote:I have told my children that we will always answer their questions honestly to the best of our ability. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that we spill the beans. When Dd asked us about Santa Clause, I asked her what she thought and then reinforced her opinion without actually saying what I believe. When Dd wrote me a note in SM that said that JS was a great man, I wrote back saying that I agree and that I know he did many great things. It’s the balance between being honest and gauging what they are prepared for and interested in knowing.
I like this approach Roy. Thanks for sharing.
Yesterday, as we were leaving for church, our 7 year old daughter observed a lot of cars still in the parking lot here at our townhouse complex. She remarked that a lot of people aren’t going to church on Sunday like they should. We had a nice little discussion about how people have many different belief systems and that not going to church doesn’t mean that they are bad people or that what they believe is necessarily wrong. It’s just different from what we believe.
Then after church, my 9 year old was upset. I mentioned before that the idea of going on a mission currently terrifies him and he doesn’t understand how anyone could possibly want to leave their home and family for two years. Well, they had some sort of lesson on serving missions in primary and he said he was feeling pressured into saying he was going to go on a mission but he doesn’t want to. I reassured him that serving a mission is a choice, that plenty of good men hadn’t served missions, and that he has plenty of time to make that decision. Hopefully small conversations like these will help my kids think more about religion and grow up being actively involved in their own way without just blindly following the culture of the church. Does that make sense?
With nearly all of our family being TBM in every sense of the expression, I’m trying to view our religion more as a part of our heritage. Something that has been extremely important and valuable to our families for generations. It’s helping me to find the good in it.
I admire your courage to be true to your own belief and not pretend to faith that you don’t have.
Orson wrote:I like to think of the silent members that heard your talk and were lifted by it. I can imagine someone sitting there thinking “if there is room for a HC like this in the church then maybe there is room for me.”
:thumbup:
If I were in that audience, this would have been me. I would have been so grateful to know that I was not the only one. I struggle in my calling as well. I teach gospel doctrine class. Even when I think sharing my own feelings or opinions on a subject might be met with backlash, I always get one or two who come up and thank me for sharing it. Of course, I’m careful to share only to the smallest degree so as not to be labeled or called out. I hope you keep serving on the HC because I know someone is out there who needed to hear your message.This subject hits close to home for me. I have a brother who is gay. He served a mission, but returned early due to psychological issues. He became deeply depressed and attempted suicide at least 3 times that I know of. I was just 17 when he came out and I had already suspected that he was gay. I told him that he had my love and support no matter what. My parents really struggled with it. My mother has been able to be very supportive of him and he has been with a wonderful partner for the past 13 years who has really helped him face his depression and other struggles. My father, however, pretty much shut him out of his life. My parents are divorced and my father’s current wife refuses to have anything to do with my brother due to his homosexuality. Your nephew needs to come to his own conclusions about his sexuality without being labeled by others, especially his family. I feel like society pressures young people to label and identify themselves before they’ve even matured enough to understand themselves. His parents sound a lot like my in-laws. I can understand the concern that they would not react well if he were to come out as gay.
I like Ray’s advice, especially #2. What your nephew needs is to know that there are people who love him and will support him no matter what. He needs to know that his parents views are not held by everyone and that he will have somewhere to turn if he needs help.
I’m relatively new to my faith crisis, about 6 months or so, and sometimes I wonder the same thing. My husband knows about my struggles and feelings and is very supportive. I also struggle with my calling. I teach the gospel doctrine class on the D&C and church history. On Own Now wrote:It’s easier said than done, but IMO, the thing anyone should do in a faith transition is to figure out whether and how much to stay involved with the church, looking solely at their own situation, and what is right for them, but to do so without regard to external pressures. Callings, expectations of friends and family, trying to keep up appearances can have a devastating affect on your clarity for your own self-determination.
I totally agree with this statement. It’s what I feel like I need to do now. It’s difficult because those external pressures can be crushing at times and due to what another poster in another thread called the many outward markers of righteousness employed by the church, making the changes necessary for your own journey can sometimes subject you to judgments and criticism from others. Obviously I have no profound answer for you. Do what feels right for you and your family. Best wishes!
