[Meoclew]

Yesterday was a combined YW’s lesson on “change.” While introducing the lesson, the teacher asked everyone, “What brings about change?”

And I yelled, “Obama!”

[Meoclew]

Thanks everyone for your advice.

Wayfarer wrote:

Live authentically. What you wear as underwear is no-one’s business. Burn no bridges. Go slowly, and find things to share in common with relatives.

Cadence wrote:

For me I just live as authentically as possible without making a big deal out of it. I do not pronounce my disbelief neither do I run from it, but when questioned I usually give the short version on any particular subject. People get it in small bites that way. I have never been a big fan of formal announcements. I believe you just let things happen over time.

I love this. That’s exactly how I would prefer to go about it.

For the sake of clarification, I have little to no actual desire to “come out” to my family. It is such a personal decision that I don’t feel the need to justify it or even explain it to anyone (except my husband).

There are two reasons that I feel that the issue is inevitably going to come up in the near future:

1. My wearing of G’s has been brought up in the past. Even though I did my utmost to wear them faithfully, there were occasions where I was not wearing them because of exercise/late laundry/period/lingering in my swimsuit after the beach/etc. and I was frequently called out by family members. At the time, I always felt awful and like I was putting my soul at risk. I know better now, but because of that and a few other factors, I count myself as having “deep psychological issues” (as Ray put it) regarding G’s. So, I know that my family is paying attention to my underwear and that they likely won’t let it slide. When it does come up, I want to be prepared for the conversation so that I can direct it in a loving, understanding way.

Brian Johnston wrote:

When that time comes that you have to talk to others, I have found it best NOT to go into any specifics unless you absolutely have to. Those never seem to turn into productive conversations. I try to frame things in terms of MY viewpoints or preferences, instead of trying to explain why I think the way I do now, or prove that I am right (which by default is an attack on their beliefs).

Heber13 wrote:

You might be able to understand them better than they can understand you and where you are at. Take that into consideration on how you talk to them and how you frame things and which topics to discuss and which things to avoid as much as you possibly can. If you know it is sacred to them, you wouldn’t mock it and hurt their feelings, would you? No…you’ll talk about it sacredly and respectfully, even if you don’t believe it the way they do. So, use Mormon-speak best you can…out of respect for them. But always be honest.

So I have to figure out a way to do just that.

2. Since the recent Missionary announcement, my little sister is now filling out her papers for her mission. Whenever a family member goes through the temple for the first time, all the TR holding members of the family join in. So, even if my family becomes tactful enough to not attempt to call me to repentance for my underwear choices, I will still be having some sort of conversation about why **I can’t be there with her for such a once-in-a-lifetime occasion (and some people, like On Own Now, have to deal with that when children are getting married, which seems far harder). Currently, I’m considering just making something up so I can say that I just couldn’t make it, but I’m not sure lying like that would really save me any emotional pain.

**I know that many people here have found ways to still feel comfortable attending the temple and holding a current recommend, and I absolutely respect that and in no way find them less worthy. It is only that for me, personally, I can’t do that without feeling like I’m being dishonest to everyone involved, including myself.

But reading through everyone’s advice and experiences has helped me feel calmer overall. My family is going to find a way to love me no matter what, even if they think I’ve “strayed.” My desire to have a fool-proof game plan before the event is unrealistic, so I’ll just have to handle it as lovingly as I can when or if the time comes. :angel:

[Meoclew]

That article is pure hogwash. The church is definitely true because too many people would have to have lied for it not to be? I’m pretty sure that logic makes every religion on the entire planet the “One True Church.”

In a way, the church is %100 responsible for my cynicism, but in all reality, it’s no worse than any other belief system anywhere. Just like any other religion, it’s going to work for some people and not for others. No matter which religion I might have been raised in (or lack of), I feel that I would have gone through the same disillusionments and cynicism at one point or another. So I’m going to stick with this one, even if I feel cynical because to me questioning everything that I hear is just a part of growing up.

[Meoclew]

I don’t know you, but I know you’re input is missed already.

[Meoclew]

These situations are tough because while we here know that he’s overstepping his bounds and acting controlling, to him he’s being a good member missionary and not taking no for an answer. As mormons, we don’t specifically instruct people to be obnoxious, but honestly Dave’s type of behavior is frequently preached and encouraged. It’s hard to reason with those people because they are doing what they think is right in the only way they know how to do it.

I agree with everyone that discussing your differences in belief won’t be ultimately productive, but let him know that at some point he’s going to have to let go of his feelings of responsibility for your eternal soul and replace it with respect for you as a mature adult capable of making your own decisions.

[Meoclew]

To be honest, I don’t know how you’re still hanging in there even as well as you are. I absolutely respect that. The churches stance on gays and the utter lack of reasoning or solutions is really what drove me away from it in the first place, and I’m straight. Clearly, I have no answers and no comfort to give, but my heart is with you.

[Meoclew]

I went through this exact thing. I was called as beehive advisor right before my faith questions turned into a faith crises. All throughout, I knew that I loved the girls, but frankly, I hated the lessons. When I realized once and for all that I couldn’t be a TBM, I questioned whether I could really do this calling. Every single day for months, all I wanted was to call the bishop and ask to be released. Eventually, I realized that those girls were some of my best friends, and I didn’t know what I would do without them. As far as the lessons, I’ve had to decide that I will try to never teach something that I don’t at least somewhat believe in, even if I have to get creative. Last week’s lesson was on the importance of truth in a virtuous life, and since my idea of the truth is very different from the manual’s, I just changed the whole lesson and talked instead on time management. I enjoy my calling more now than I did even before my faith crises.

[Meoclew]

St. Peter was guarding the pearly gates when he was approached by a newly deceased man. After going through the regular questions, St. Peter asked curiously, “So, how did you die?”

“Well,” the man replied, “I had been suspecting for a while that my wife was having an affair. One day I came home from work and saw a pair of men’s boots by the door. They weren’t mine. So I ran to the bedroom and found my wife in there alone, then searched in the closet and under the bed and then the rest of our 20th floor apartment. Just as I was about to give up, I looked out at our balcony and saw a man hanging over the railing, barely holding on. I pounded on his hands until he let go and dropped to the ground, but then I realized he was still alive, so I threw my refrigerator off the balcony at him. In all the excitement, I had a heart attack right there and died.”

Impressed, St. Peter let him pass.

A second man approached. St. Peter again asked the regular questions and then asked how he died.

“Well, I was painting my balcony on the 25th floor of my apartment building when I tripped and fell over the side. I somehow managed to grab onto a railing, but then some MADMAN came out and started beating my hands! I fell to the ground, and then realized that I was miraculously still alive, but then the psycho threw a refrigerator at me!”

Amazed, St. Peter let him pass.

A third man approached, and St. Peter again asked him how he died.

“Well,” he answered, “I was hiding in this refrigerator….”

[Meoclew]

For what it’s worth, I think the analogy is a good one. Not to say that it is a perfect comparison to real life, but it is interesting and thought provoking – which is the point of a good analogy.

[Meoclew]

A thought just occurred to me… if the Holy Ghost is an actual person who is separate from God, and the HG is the one who “overcame” and impregnated Mary, wouldn’t that make HG Jesus’ literal father? The other scene that keeps playing in my mind is God pulling aside HG and saying, “Here is some of my sperm. Wait for Gabriel to finish talking to that virgin over there and then put it in her.”

[Meoclew]

When I was in seminary, I had one particular teacher who stood out from the others. Whenever I or another student had a question on the specifics of a certain rule or behavior we were told to abide by, he would simply raise a finger and say, “Let your conscience be your guide.” He would smile and refuse to elaborate any further.

Wouldn’t it be a wonderful thing if the church could adopt this attitude a little more? It certainly comes with a high risk of people doing something you don’t want them to do, but it allows people to make the decision that is right for them: either obeying because it genuinely feels right, or disobeying because it genuinely feels right. That is the kind of freedom that we lack in the church.

[Meoclew]

This topic is one that is very near and dear to my heart; not because I am or know anyone personally with SSA, but because I have always been overly empathetic with the struggles of complete strangers. This is the issue that first prompted the change in my personal relationship with the church. I was as TBM as they come, solidly stage three, and knowing that homosexuality was “wrong” but not understanding why was very painful for me. It occurred to me, if the church could possibly be wrong about this one thing, then what else might they be wrong about? But I suppose that is beside the point 🙄

As far as the origins of SSA, I believe there are many. Many that we know of and many that we don’t. Certainly, no infant is attracted to the same gender (or the opposite), but that doesn’t mean that they weren’t “born” that way, so to speak. And environmental factors are also in play. I’m sure that any gay person you meet will be influenced by a unique combination of biological and environmental factors, just like any of us, and that in no way makes them responsible for those circumstances. Any study that you can name that points to any one cause (or result) of homosexuality is simply one of many studies, all of which are contradicted by other studies. If you want to back up your opinion using solid scientific “facts,” feel free to do so. Just remember that you are only accepting and presenting the proof that backs up your already formed opinions. Being unbiased in your search for the truth of the matter is admirable, but it is not possible, and if it were, you would still only have access to biased information.

As far as homosexuality being a choice, I’m going to go ahead and say that almost no one that you could ever meet has chosen to be gay. I say ‘almost’ because I’m sure that there are exceptions in the world. And even if someone has made a conscious decision – IMHO that’s their call. In the past few years, I have definitely seen a lot of progress being made, both in and out of the church, in abandoning the thought that SSA is a choice. The church has made great strides in moving away from that teaching, and I have high hopes for the future of the church and society in general. I also think that it is worthwhile to point out that many people who oppose homosexuality can’t help their feelings about it either. Straight people with straight desires have no natural ability to understand SSA desires, and this makes them inherently uncomfortable with it. When that is reinforced by family, society and spiritual leaders (and therefore ‘God’) telling us that it is against nature, that will naturally lead to a moral opposition to it. Trying to forcibly change someone who strongly feels that homosexuality is wrong can be just as harmful as trying to forcibly change someone who feels that it is not wrong. Tolerance, respect and acceptance must be shown on all sides here.

As far as gay marriage, it is my personal opinion that it should be legal. People should be able to marry people that they love, that they are compatible with, and that they are attracted to. I don’t think that this would have negative outcomes for children so long as their financial and emotional needs are both met. A big fear in the church is that if gay marriage were legal, it would affect temple marriage. That is a legitimate concern. My solution is this: gay couples should be able to get married AND any religious institution should be able to refuse to marry any couple, for whatever reason. We (mankind) shouldn’t reject an individual’s rights to be with those they love, and we (mankind) shouldn’t force a group or religion to change their practices and beliefs for the convenience or comfort of any group. This is America, for heaven’s sake.

I don’t claim to have all the answers; I don’t think that anyone has all the answers. I just want everyone to love everyone, dangit.

[Meoclew]

Yes, you are smack-dab in the middle of the hard part. I am so sorry for everything that you have been experiencing. How painful, and how tiring, it must be. It sounds like your wife is pretty supportive (though correct me if I’m wrong), and that is a big plus. I do not have any kids, and I’m still working on developing a game plan on how to raise our future children with parents who have different beliefs. I think your sons are old enough to understand your situation (to a certain extent) if you are completely honest with them.

TBMs have a habit of trying to change your mind. For the most part, they can’t change their feelings and beliefs any more than you can, so it’s important not to do or say anything hurtful or disrespectful if this is the case with your family. Try not to get defensive or impatient. Years from now, you will want them to be able to look back on this time and have the comfort of knowing that this change in you, whether they agree with your beliefs or not, ultimately made you into a better, happier person than you were before.

The only important thing is that you do whatever you need to do to be happy. If any level of participation in the church brings you more pain than peace, then you don’t need it. Another religion may suit you better, or a combination of faiths, or a hobby that brings you spiritual fulfillment. If communicating with (or even believing in) a God brings you more pain than peace, then it is counterproductive to continue doing so (at least for the moment). Perhaps you are a person who will never find true peace in any kind of worship; perhaps, in time, you will be able to heal enough that you want to bring those things back into your life. Just do what you need to do, and focus on not feeling guilty or ashamed about it in the meantime.

Best of luck :thumbup:

[Meoclew]

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful comments! It’s an amazing comfort for me to know that I have so many friends (and strangers nonetheless) in my corner. Roy, I am thrilled to hear that my thoughts have served a purpose beyond my own venting; thank you so much for sharing that with me.

I want to briefly confess that my portrayal of my DH is not complete, and not completely fair. While he did say and do the things I described in the post, they were his lower moments in our discussions of garments (which does seem to be something of a trigger for him). In most of our other interactions, even when he disagrees with me, he has been extremely loving and kind. And most of all, he has been improving. He has been adapting to the changes in me with much more grace than I think I would have had our positions been reversed. He has made comments that have been insensitive and unhelpful, but he is trying so hard to somehow follow the dictates of his own conscience (obey his church leaders) and be the husband that I need him to be. Even since posting this, I have seen a softening in him, and I think it’s only a matter of time before we can find a compromise that we both feel at peace with. I have high hopes for our future.

I brought up marriage counseling to him, and while it made him nervous at first, I think that he’s warming up to the idea. Today I also suggested that he look into FacesEast.org, which seems to be a forum rather like this one except for the purpose of supporting our wonderful TBM spouses (and with generally poorer grammar, though I try not to judge). Thank you again for your support; I don’t know what I would do without you all. Please continue leaving your thoughts and suggestions :thumbup:

[Meoclew]

I just found out that my husband and I have been assigned to fellowship a new couple in the ward (the wife has just agreed to get baptized). When they told me, I almost laughed out loud at the irony. Turns out, the missionaries that I’ve been seeing for the past few months made the recommendation, so I’m pretty sure they’re hoping that the new couple will actually be able to fellowship me. 😆

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