[metalrain]

Heber13 wrote:

metalrain wrote:

What are everyones thoughts on the temple?

I can’t deny the experiences I’ve had in the temple. Part of me thinks I could have the same experiences up in the mountains walking in nature and talking with God.

Some of my most spiritual or profound moments of awareness of God were in the mountains, by myself. I feel much closer to God’s presence in nature than I do in the temple. However, in the initiatory session, I’ve found peace in those promises- even though (maybe?) due to my own unworthiness, protection hasn’t always been offered through the garment. Endowment sessions are relaxing to the point where all I do is fall asleep during the movies, but during the rest of the ceremony the discomfort begins.. until the quietness of the celestial room. But.. I find and feel a more raw connection to God in nature in comparison to the celestial room.

The one thing about the temple that makes me wonder is the sealing ceremony- it’s such a beautiful thing and IF I’ve felt the spirit in the temple it has been in that ceremony- if not it was just an incredible amount of radiating love from those present. That’s my challenge right now. I don’t really believe the church is the only true church so much anymore- but I for some reason would like to get sealed. It’s a weird place.

[metalrain]

Ann wrote:

Quote:

Having to ignore what is really said to women isn’t a very faith affirming experience. Ignoring things takes some level of energy. Deliberately not paying attention still requires some attention.

This is the key issue for many faithful women in the church. I believe far more women than men dislike the temple, and that this is why. I think it’s one reason women generally prefer the initiatory; we aren’t confronted with the differences in the men’s version. Women are negatively surprised by the sexism we encounter in the temple, like it was hidden from us and now we are in a high pressure situation and have to agree to it.

I would prefer that my daughter embrace the covenants of the temple, that she choose to live a Christlike life, to make sacrifices, and to bind herself to her family in love. But if the price for that is that she has to be subjugated to the arm of flesh (her husband) while the reverse is not true, and that her eternal reward is permanent second class status, that’s a hard sell. I can’t sell what I don’t buy. If the choice is between my daughter’s self worth and the temple, I don’t see how the temple wins.

If that’s not really our doctrine, then it’s time to finally update the temple script. We have revised the temple ceremonies continuously since they first began. I can only hope that thoughtful changes are in the works. In ten years, it will be too late for my daughter. It’s already been 25 years too late for me.

We talk here about baby steps, water getting to the end of the rows, etc. But I don’t know if this one can wait. In ten years, it will be too late for Angela’s daughter. In five years it will be too late for my second. It’s too late now for my niece.

Thanks to the internet it’s never too late to say what was going on in our heart of hearts so long ago. There were good things that day, all dressed in white, but I wish I’d had the wisdom and courage to ignore key phrases, instead of taking them as gospel truth. (I did have the courage last time I was there to be silent at certain points.)

Again,

Quote:

Having to ignore what is really said to women isn’t a very faith affirming experience.

What’s the real obstacle to changing it?

A girl I was dating (who had already left the church when we started dating) had left for those very reasons. I hadn’t ever thought about the disparity in it until my faith crisis them I realized it was an issue as well- something I’m concerned about having to educate my future children about should I choose to raise them inside.

[metalrain]

Can you share some of that Ray?

[metalrain]

Heber13 wrote:

LDS_Scoutmaster wrote:

I hope for one as well, i believe and hope. what exactly it is I don’t know, but I’ve always felt it, there has to be something there. Heaven would be a place, much like life, all of the good things and none of the bad.

Do you think we can expect to have good in heaven without any bad? Must there be opposition in all things, that we need the bad to know the good…or does that just apply to our mortal existence do you think?

I honestly think eternity isn’t going to be easy: if you have forever, not getting bored won’t be easy. That’s the way I see it at least.

I hope there is a heaven. I hope there is a rest from the life, and disabilities I’ve accrued. I hope God is as merciful as I expect him to be, especially if I’m wrong about some of the things I think and doubt. If there is anything I want right now, it’s for God to reach out to me and communicate something.

[metalrain]

rachael wrote:

I will have follow up with resources later but I used study this topic somewhat obcessively.

1. Evidence for pre-Columbian horses like described the BoM.

2. Extensive highway systems that still haven’t been excavated fully and made with a cement we cannot duplicate.

3. There have been several toys with wheels found though mainstream science says the natives didn’t have wheel technology.

4. The Bat Creek stone and many other relics with Hebrew inscriptions (could be fakes but I would like to believe are genuine).

I have more but none are really from orthodox archaeological sources. Of course this isn’t an orthodox audience

sources? i’m curious

[metalrain]

I agree. It’s hard to shift that mentality sometimes, but I feel more free than before.

What are everyones thoughts on the temple? I personally have been thinking about that often. I have always enjoyed initiatories and sealings, but the first time I did the endowment it freaked me out and I don’t know if I’ve been 100% comfortable with it ever since- knowing a little bit about the masonic stuff has also lead me to wonder and doubt. But I’d like to hear some other peoples viewpoints and thoughts about it?

[metalrain]

mom3 wrote:

Wow it’s like us. Only on the phone. Very crazy and cool.

except i think most of us believe in a higher power still, maybe?

[metalrain]

Hi Whiterapids!

I’m 25 and single- you’re in a much more difficult spot than me. But, what this quote says by Heber is what has helped me the most. I believe in certain aspects of the church. I don’t believe in everything anymore. I don’t feel obligated to go to church every week anymore. When I go, I feel better about going. The way I look at other people has changed. I feel less judgmental and more empathetic.

We are raised in the church as it being very black and white… after my faith crisis/transition, I don’t think that’s the case. I have come to appreciate truth in general more thoroughly. I’m still in the process: My shelf cracked in the fall and I fixed it, but last month it broke and I’ve been sorting through it.

Like everyone else has said, TAKE IT SLOW. I was obsessive and it was ruining my life. I wasn’t happy and people who were close to me noticed. That was disconcerting. You need to make sure you continue to do things that are fulfilling to you so you can stay happy and have a clear head. When we aren’t worried about faith, the church is just a part of our life, not all of our life. When we are doubting or transitioning, it is everything right? 🙂 .

You’re in the right place I would say even more if you still believe in God and or Jesus Christ and want to maintain a sense of spirituality. I think that’s the main objective of everyone here, regardless of belief. We all have a different system and I think for most of us, it’s continually evolving. Welcome to a group of misfits, but in the short time I’ve been here, I’ve felt so much better having a safe place with likeminded or different minded people who can expand my view.

Heber13 wrote:

One thing you can open your mind to, is that you don’t have to agree with some or all of the teachings. Allow yourself not to. You can choose if staying in the church or leaving is going to be best for you, but no matter what you choose…you want to have good influences in your life, things that help you feel peaceful, and happy, and fulfilled.

It may be a paradox to you…but the church may be teaching stuff you don’t believe in…but there is more to the church than that, especially for your family and children. Can you embrace paradox? The church is not true AND the church is true (depending on what truth your’e focusing on).

The best place to start is to focus on things you DO agree with your husband about. Charity. Service. Worth of souls. Unselfishness. These things are taught all the time in church. Then, just start to talk about things you doubt…like the literal history of the Book of Mormon, or whatever. Use good timing to talk about it, and use proper dosing that he can digest (don’t overdose him), and use tact (like respectful speech towards temples or prophets or things he holds sacred…you would do that to a friend who is any other religion, right? So do that with those close to you also).

Take the onion approach of going layer by layer on what you really don’t like, but keep a hold of what you really do like. And emphasize with your husband all the things you have in common with the beliefs. Keep it all in perspective. Break from black and white thinking of it is all true or all false. And see if that helps bring peace to how you feel about the church or not.

[metalrain]

On Own Now wrote:

For me, both when I was a fully believing and faithful member of the Church, and now that I am an Atheist, I don’t see the Church as inserted between God and me. I have always seen myself as an agent unto myself, having a private relationship with God, and a member of a community where we are all trying to do the same thing within a framework. In other words, I see myself as the Subject in the Church and in rituals, rather than the Object. I think that has been a driving factor in my ability to StayLDS in spite of significant differences between the Church and me.

See, that is something that I never really understood and has been one of the reasons that this has been so difficult for me in transitioning my paradigms.

Lots of interesting insights here and I like the direction these conversations are headed. Don’t stop your tangents because they’re valuable and free flowing conversation is where the biggest realizations occur.

[metalrain]

Ann wrote:

metalrain wrote:

Another thing that has really helped me this week is separating the church and the gospel even more in my mind- the church teaches the gospel and isn’t the gospel. Faith, repentance, persevering. Loving, charity, and etc. Are what really the gospel is about.

Apologies because I’ve referred to this often, but I like the analogy of the church as a walking stick and not the path itself.

Love this. That realization has become liberating to me recently.

I’m not sure how I feel about the temple in general, I think that’s my next mental exploration frontier. It’s interesting because I don’t distinctly remember ever feeling the spirit in the endowment but I do in the initiatory and the sealing ceremonies. I slept the other night without my garment top and felt a little guilty, cold, and remembered how soft my blankets are.

[metalrain]

I went to church today- about half of sacrament. I felt peaceful sitting there, one of the talks wasn’t so much about doctrinal subjects. Then one of the bishopric got up and talked about something I’ve been disagreeing with the church about- works vs grace. He gave the typical through grace we are saved, but faith workout works is dead stance.

I’ve realized how much more weight there is on grace than anything else- and no matter how much I do, it’s never enough. That’s comforting, in the sense that God really loves us. I think the church places a lot of value in “works” like indexing, home teaching, and etc, but what I’m really realizing the works that I find the most fulfillment for are being available for people I see actually struggling and who actually need help. Being totally non judgmental (the whole FC has done that to me- I used to be a hardliner about garments and other stupid stuff, but now I see the toxicity in a lot of previous viewpoints)

Another thing that has really helped me this week is separating the church and the gospel even more in my mind- the church teaches the gospel and isn’t the gospel. Faith, repentance, persevering. Loving, charity, and etc. Are what really the gospel is about.

I’m not leaning in any direction- I’ve kind of just been floating and really thinking a lot about everything. There is a lot of good, but a lot of bad. That’s in everything though. The biggest struggle or concern I have right now is my dating life because I’m not sure how I line up with anyone right now. But I read a quote on here that has really resonated with me, “Love transcends religion”. If only that were true in reality. My

Really appreciate the input and thoughts, I have read all of it multiple times and have thought a lot so far. I don’t see an end in sight but that’s ok. It’s not consuming me.

[metalrain]

I feel like caffeine was the perfect example: to the point where they had to issue a statement that caffeine was “ok”. Duh it was ok. But, that’s the way it is with a lot of GA type statements. GA says it, GA was “right”, then GA comes after and usurps what the old GA said. How do you deal with that?

[metalrain]

Heber13 wrote:

I grew up with a strong testimony of Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, who had done more for the salvation of mankind than anyone else, save Jesus only.

I never really thought about what that meant, or how to prove the statement…I just heard it a lot on Sunday and I revered him as the prophet of the last dispensation.

He accomplished so many good works, brought forth scripture and revelation, established the church again as God commanded him. He organized people and started a movement that went beyond himself, and has survived today into a significant organization.

Then, I became aware of the historical facts hidden from most of us, because…well..they didn’t protect his legacy and they were confusing and not inspiring.

But I told myself, I’m a big boy now…I should be able to look into what is real, and determine what is good and bad for me to know. I want truth.

I went through many books, and Rough Stone Rolling was a good, fairly balanced approach at the events, letting me make up my mind.

I never got angry or disbelieved Joseph Smith, I more just adjusted my focus and vision, to be able to say, “Joseph did some crazy stuff, and made mistakes AND he also did some amazing things and great works that have blessed my life, and millions others.” The “AND” is important.

I don’t focus solely on the bad stuff he did. But I don’t dismiss it. It’s all a part of the man he was. It is comforting for me to know God can work through imperfect mortals, perhaps even me.

I can relate to this quite a bit. I had the same view but the transition has been hard. It’s hard for me to think about things logically and balance faith/spirituality, especially from what the church has taught vs. the historical details omitted.

IE: Joseph died a martyr, firm in his testimony. (Omitted: Because he ordered the destruction of a printing press. And his party was armed- not exactly the lamb to the slaughter I’ve always been taught)

Joseph lived in nice homes and had lots of things while other members had nothing. The bank and those failures. How/why?

An angel with a flaming sword commanding him to do polygamy/polyandry? I have SUCH a hard time with that.

The other side of the argument, is, like you said. If God can work through such imperfect mortals, then are his judgements as harsh as I’ve been lead to believe? I feel like a lot of the things Joseph did would have gotten him ex’d instantly in the church today. Am I going to be judged lighter than I anticipated? I sure hope so.

I feel like the church is so good, but there are things I just don’t like. The staunch opposition to gay marriage. The fact that girls are still set on motherhood and not careers and developing their talents. IF I ever have daughters, how do I contradict the things they are taught at church and make sure that they know that they can do whatever they want and be as successful or independent as they please?

I’ve felt better the last few days, but I’ve been partially avoiding everything.

[metalrain]

I think the thing I’m having the hardest time with is Joseph Smith. And I think a majority of it was due to the stories and information I was told at church vs. what the history says. How have you guys worked through things like the seer stone vs. urim & thummim, polyandry, book of abraham & etc?

[metalrain]

Hi guys, I’m back. Such an awesome weekend- did so many rad things.

I’m not sure how the forum works in the sense of “support”, can I ask/reason my questions and doubts in this section?

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