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LCWalker wrote:
mfree6464 wrote:
LCWalker wrote:Forgive her.
I wanted to take a moment to address this comment because this thread seems to find someone every year or two who is suffering like I was and advice like this, though well-meaning, is not helpful to those who are going through this.
I get it. If you haven’t experienced this type of challenge then forgiveness seems to be the answer. It is not. This isn’t about harboring anger over another person’s mistakes, it’s about sorrow. To use an extreme example: if a drunk driver wiped out your family you could forgive the driver’s mistake but that would not remove your sorrow. You would still mourn the terrible loss. Same thing applies here except I was never at any point angry at my wife for her “sins”. She was 16 years old and, like every human on this planet, made a mistake. I never assigned blame to her at all. Ever. I was simply heartbroken at the thought of what happened and, due to my OCD, couldn’t get it out of my head. Forgiveness does not apply to this situation though I totally understand why someone might think that it does.
What makes you think I’ve not been through something? Besides, I said more than “forgive her”. Please quote me in context.
LCWalker,
I apologize for only extracting the “forgive her” portion of your comment. My intent was brevity; in no way was I trying to be deceptive or misleading or misrepresent what you were trying to say.
My purpose here now (and the reason I continue to periodically check in on this thread) is to be for others what I needed 6 years ago when I was suffering so greatly. I can only speak from my own experience when I say that when people advised me to forgive her it only added to my anguish and did not get at the root of the problem. I don’t want someone who is struggling like I was to read that advice and suffer unnecessarily. In my case, the problem was OCD. In the simplest of terms, I obsessed over something that is very unpleasant and that caused me tremendous grief. For better or worse, forgiveness doesn’t fix OCD.
It’s a very long thread and I don’t expect everyone to read every word I’ve written but I’ve never at any point been upset or angry with my wife through this process. In fact, I probably would have made the same choices she did were the roles reversed. I completely understand why she made the choices she did and thankfully I now understand why I hurt the way I did as well. Additionally, with respect to your advice about salvaging my marriage – never was my marriage in peril and I don’t think I’ve written anything to that effect. In fact, this experience made my marriage stronger and that strength has continued in the ensuing years.
A couple years back I actually addressed the forgiveness issue and I’ll quote that here:
mfree6464 wrote:
When I first posted here I was seeking a safe place to talk. I had posted in one other location prior to this and was largely told that I needed to forgive and forget. I was told that I was disrespecting the Atonement. I was told I lacked faith. I was told that I was judgmental. I was told my wife deserved better than me. Just as it would not be helpful to tell an OCD sufferer that one hand-washing is enough and that 8 washings is crazy. Similarly, telling me that I was disrespecting Christ’s Atonement only added to my suffering.
So yeah, in retrospect it’s probably a little bit of a sore spot for me. I hope some of what I’ve posted here gives some understanding on why I feel strongly about the point of forgiveness as it pertains to this issue.
Roy wrote:
I know that in your situation these ideas were deeply ingrained and you could not simply change how you felt about them. I am just hopeful that someone will read that there are different ways to think about these topics than how we may have traditionally been taught.
Roy, I couldn’t agree more. There are MUCH better ways to think about the topics I mentioned in my most recent post. I don’t share them because I believe them, I share them so that others might more easily understand why I felt such profound and immense pain. This thread incredibly has more than 30,000 views right now! If some people read this and start to think about the topics I just mentioned in a less-traditional way then that’s definitely a bonus
:thumbup: Roy wrote:How did your leaving the church impact your family? Did your wife leave as well or are you in a “mixed faith” marriage? How have your kids handled it?
I’d be glad to elaborate on my decision to leave the church and also answer these questions. I was an ardent Latter Day Saint who KNEW the church was true for decades. I did not doubt. My wife and I did attend the temple and always had current recommends. It’s been 6 years since I first posted here and in that time the journey of life has taught me some things. To make a long story short, I now have a greater testimony that the church is not true than I did when I believed it was true. And for that reason I no longer attend. I know from personal experience as a believer that most people will likely assume I left because I couldn’t deal with my wife’s past or because I was angry at God over a perceived injustice. This is not the case. If God visited me tonight and told me this was His church and that I am sorely mistaken, then I’d be back this Sunday. The past has no bearing on my decision to leave. My choice is entirely based on whether I believe the church is true or not and right now I do not.I’ve been fortunate in that I have not had to deal with much family strife over my choice to leave the church. When I first started to share my concerns with my wife she was scared and resistant. I told her that I didn’t know where this was going to lead but that if it ended with me not believing I told her I would honor the commitment I made when we married and remain a member if that was important to her. She was always the more nuanced member between the two of us and I think she was scared about being thrust into the role of being the strong LDS partner to me. I never pushed or prodded her in one direction or the other but over time she eventually lost her faith in the church as well. I honestly don’t know what that process was like for her but we are on the same page now and we got here with our relationship relatively unscathed, thankfully. As for the kids, they handled it remarkably well. If I was in their shoes I think I would have freaked out because I was a kid who really believed. We told our kids that if they wanted to continue attending we would support them but I don’t think any of my children had developed their own testimonies yet so they decided to stop attending when we did. Incidentally, when I posted 6 years ago my 3 siblings and both parents were all active members of the church. Everyone has their own path and unique reasons but today I only have one sibling who remains a member.
I do agree with you, Roy. There are probably a lot of similarities with how I felt after learning of my wife’s sexual past and how a believing spouse feels when their partner loses faith. From the outside looking in it probably doesn’t make a lot of sense as to why that might be painful. Someone might be tempted to say “just forgive” or “live and let live” but this kind of advice really doesn’t get to the root of the problem. You’re dealing with deeply held beliefs and eternal consequences. The stakes and emotions both run high. At the end of the day I’m REALLY grateful to be where I am right now. This is the right place for my family and I. I am not angry or sad. That said, I recognize the mission of this website and I want to make sure I say that I’m not “anti-Mormon.” In fact, I wish that my dad had stayed LDS because I think it was really good for him and something he needs in his life. If feel the same for anyone who finds that the church adds value to their life.
chckn_tender_mercies, Love the name! ha ha. But in all seriousness I’m sorry to hear your are struggling. I check in on this site every few months just to see if anyone has resurrected this thread. I see that you’ve only made this one post so I’m not sure you’ll even read my words but I’ll respond anyhow since it might help someone else down the line who will come across it looking for answers.
The thing you said that stood out most to me was this:
chckn_tender_mercies wrote:
I didn’t really put it all together until yesterday. Something she said made it click and it all kind of caught me off guard. My brain hasn’t been able to turn off since.
It sounds like you had only been dealing with this reality for about 24 hours or so before writing. Hopefully things have settled down in the weeks since and you are fine. Hopefully it was just a minor jolt that you’ve now processed and moved on with. The fact that you haven’t responded since is probably a good sign for you. This is a problem that can last years so I hope for your sake it is over and done with.You mentioned the word “jealousy” a couple times and I want to point out that jealousy is a misnomer. This isn’t jealousy you are feeling. I’ve been jealous before when a neighbor gets a new car or a co-worker get a raise. But jealousy never made me weep like this challenge did for me. You are dealing with something else entirely.
You asked if it had to do with a rigid (presumably Mormon) upbringing. Probably in-part, yes. But there are people from all faiths who suffer from this and even those with little-to-no religious belief at all who struggle. So that can’t be all of it. Religious or not, most people find it very unpleasant to think about the person they love being intimate with someone else.
I’m not sure where you are with your faith, but if you are able to put aside the idea that she “sinned” I think that will be helpful. You mentioned not being bothered by her intimacy with her ex-husband. I completely understand this and, though my wife was never married before, I agree that had she been it would not have been an issue for me. Why? Because I would not have viewed sexual intimacy with her ex-husband as wrong. That’s what married people are supposed to do so those acts wouldn’t cause me sorrow. Weird, I know. But I’m guessing you probably understand that. Give it some further thought. Why is it ok for her to be sexual with an ex-husband but not an ex-boyfriend? Answering this probably won’t cure you but it will help.
This is a complicated issue and unfortunately there is no magic pill or phrase or single perspective that will remedy the problem. It will take work and time and the path will be different for everyone. For me, one of the painful loops I got stuck in was this idea in my head that sexual sin was a very grave sin (next to murder according to Alma 39:5). God then makes the urge to commit this sin greatest when you are 15-16 years old and for all intents and purposes unable to marry and fulfill those needs “legally.” God also made it so our brains are unable to properly predict consequences when we are teenagers so we are primed to commit this grave sin. And this sin happens to be one of the sins that can’t be undone. If I steal I can pay back the money. If I lie, I can go and tell the truth. But when a teenager inevitably fools around they have committed the sin next to murder and it can never be undone. I had a very hard time with this. It just didn’t seem like something a loving heavenly father would do and I felt like God had left me to hold the bag and suffer.
I also want to touch on OCD as I did previously a year or two back. OCD is a very common denominator among people suffering from a loved one’s sexual past. If you’re like I was you may be thinking, “Well, I don’t have OCD. I never wash my hands 42 times. I never count floor tiles. I never lock my doors 27 times.” I never did any of that either. But I did obsessively think about my wife’s past when I discovered it. I thought about it literally all the time for probably 2 years (and still occasionally think about it 6 years out.) If you find yourself with an obsession on your loved one’s past, and have a compulsion to ruminate or think about it all the time then you might be suffering from OCD as I was. When what you are thinking about is your loved one being intimate with someone, that is unpleasant and you will suffer constantly. That’s exactly what happened with me. It was agony. How did I beat it? Life came along and my focus was eventually forced onto other more pressing matters. Before my focus shifted I did go to professional counseling for a few months and it didn’t really help. I probably should have stuck with it longer. I also would plead nightly with God to help me access the enabling power of the atonement (the lesser known part of the atonement that helps us deal with the fallout and consequences of the sins of others) and that didn’t do it for me either. All I can do is share my experience. Your mileage may vary.
I am no longer a member of the church. I didn’t leave the church over this issue. In fact, I wanted nothing more than for the church to be true during this process and this challenge actually brought me closer to God when I was in the throws of it. I simply find myself now at a place where I no longer believe. That said, I don’t think that leaving the church is required to overcome the difficulty in dealing with a loved one’s sexual past. I’m all for someone choosing to StayLDS if that is what’s best for them.
I hope some of what I’ve said is helpful. If you see this and have questions for me don’t hesitate to ask! I wish you all a Happy New Year!
LCWalker wrote:Forgive her.
I wanted to take a moment to address this comment because this thread seems to find someone every year or two who is suffering like I was and advice like this, though well-meaning, is not helpful to those who are going through this.
I get it. If you haven’t experienced this type of challenge then forgiveness seems to be the answer. It is not. This isn’t about harboring anger over another person’s mistakes, it’s about sorrow. To use an extreme example: if a drunk driver wiped out your family you could forgive the driver’s mistake but that would not remove your sorrow. You would still mourn the terrible loss. Same thing applies here except I was never at any point angry at my wife for her “sins”. She was 16 years old and, like every human on this planet, made a mistake. I never assigned blame to her at all. Ever. I was simply heartbroken at the thought of what happened and, due to my OCD, couldn’t get it out of my head. Forgiveness does not apply to this situation though I totally understand why someone might think that it does.
I was listening to a podcast by John Dehlin recently and, as many of you may know, he did his Masters research and thesis on OCD. I found that much of what he shared applied to me and the suffering I experienced when I first started this thread with regard to handling my wife’s sexual past. I am by no means a professional so please don’t take my words as gospel (pun intended.) The words I am about to share are my opinions based on the understanding I received after listening to someone I consider to be a professional in the realm of OCD. If you are suffering from OCD in any of its many forms you should seek professional help. That said, I am hopeful that perhaps some of the information I am about to share will help others understand what is happening to them when they find themselves suffering over the sexual past of their significant other. I am also hopeful that those who haven’t suffered in this way will be able to better understand what I was going through when I first started this thread and why I felt the way I did.
Here is my understanding after listening to this professional:
For those who are unaware, OCD stands for obsessive compulsive disorder and obviously has two components: an obsessive part and a compulsive part. The compulsive part is the action one takes to try to remediate whatever it is one is obsessing over. Example: If you obsess about cleanliness then you might compulsively wash your hands. If you obsess about safety then you might obsessively check to make sure your door is locked before you leave. If you obsess about being righteous you might obsessively confess to your bishop over things that don’t merit confession (scrupulosity.)
Rumination (deeply thinking about something) happens to be one of the many compulsive behaviors that may be manifested by those who suffer from OCD. When I first visited with a counselor over this issue the first thing he said to me was, “You are really ruminating over this.” Again, I have not been professionally diagnosed but I believe that when I first posted back in early 2016 I was suffering, for the first time in my life, from OCD. The obsessive component was my wife’s past. The compulsive component was rumination. I could not stop thinking about her past. Thinking about my wife being with someone else in an intimate way is, for me, very painful. Thus, I was in constant pain.
Another thing I learned was that OCD attacks the things that are most important to us. I am not a neat freak so OCD never reared it’s ugly head for me in this way. I am not naturally paranoid (we regularly leave our doors unlocked for days at a time) so safety and lock checking never were a target for my OCD. I used to think I suffered from scrupulosity in my youth but after gaining more insight into what that actually looks like I no longer believe that. I think I was just a kid who was “scared straight” by the church and greatly feared going to hell so I white-knuckled my way with will power through my teens not getting into much trouble at all. But when my wife opened up to me about her past I found myself thrust into this world of suffering that I did not know existed. She is everything to me and the OCD was exploiting that. My suffering is all well-documented on this thread so I won’t go into further detail than that. But it was real. It was extremely painful. And I could not find a way out.
When I first posted here I was seeking a safe place to talk. I had posted in one other location prior to this and was largely told that I needed to forgive and forget. I was told that I was disrespecting the Atonement. I was told I lacked faith. I was told that I was judgmental. I was told my wife deserved better than me. Just as it would not be helpful to tell an OCD sufferer that one hand-washing is enough and that 8 washings is crazy. Similarly, telling me that I was disrespecting Christ’s Atonement only added to my suffering. StayLDS is a unique community. I love that one can discuss church issues here without vitriol. It seems like this is where the grown-ups hang out. And for the most part, my post has been met with maturity and understanding. So thank you for that. That said, I know how hard it is to truly understand each other sometimes so hopefully this information will help bring some clarity to those who were puzzled by my experience.
Cnsl1 wrote:
I have lots of thoughts and a fair amount of experience on this topic.. I don’t know if I can distill them into anything useful for you, but I’ll try. First, groundhog, it would probably be best to start a new thread..
Cnsl1, as the OP I’d love to hear your thoughts on the subject! Seeing as this thread seems to get resurrected every couple years by people seeking out help with this issue I’m sure there are others who would welcome and benefit from your input as well.
Cadence wrote:
Count yourself lucky you have a spouse with a sexual nature. Maybe all those great years you have had are somewhat attributable to their behaviors before they met you. Dont look down on something that is a benefit.
I understand what Cadence is saying here and in my case his advice does ring true. That said, when I posted this 4 years ago I had a lot of people reach out to me privately to share their experiences. A number of these individuals found that their spouse regretted their youthful actions to such a degree that they turned their back on those actions forever … even after marriage. I’m not a doctor but I would guess that the negative associations that some people develop when they “sin” may cause things like this to happen.
My wife and I had a very open conversation before we got married about our hopes and expectations with regard to sex. I would counsel you to have a similar conversation with your gf if you are considering marriage.
Hi Groundhog, Sorry to hear you are struggling with this difficult issue. A couple thoughts came to mind after reading your post. First, I am glad I married my wife and would do it all over again given the opportunity. She is the one for me and this issue has never changed my feelings in that regard, not in the least. As you consider marriage with your girlfriend, I would personally advise that you not let issues like this get in the way. I understand each situation is different, but my experience tells me it would be a mistake to let a potential marriage partner get away over something like this.
Second (and I think this is a major distinction between my situation and yours), my wife’s issues came to light AFTER nearly 15 years of marriage. Additionally, I was lied to before getting married and led to believe that I was her first when I really wasn’t. As I think I have said before, I don’t think I would have even written this post if she had been upfront with me from the get-go. I spent 15 years believing we had saved certain things for each other sexually and then not only did I lose that, but I learned that it was never true from the beginning. I think this compounded my suffering immensely.
If you are still looking for more help I would google the term “Retroactive Jealousy.” I have learned that this is not a Mormon issue or even a religious issue necessarily. Many people suffer as you find yourself suffering now and you are not alone. I personally hate the term “jealousy” as it relates to this issue but this seems to be the term most people apply to it.
As for me, I continue to improve. As I said a couple years back, life has provided distractions (however challenging they may be) and it continues to do so. When life finally settles down these issues may very well bubble back up but for now I have been able to go a few days without those thoughts coming to mind when before they were nearly incessant. When the thoughts do arise they are manageable. I don’t enjoy them, but I am able to suppress and manage them to a large extent. It has also been a couple years since the issue has brought me to tears so there is progress!
Hang in there and feel free to send me a private message if you have any questions.
Best
Kipper wrote:
The title could just as well be Does Prayer Help.
I stopped praying about a year ago. I vividly remember going to bed that first night after making my decision to stop praying and I felt this tremendous loss. It felt like a life-long friend had passed away – I felt really sad. Rather than go right back to prayer, I decided at that point to make an effort to see if I could fill the void in other ways.
For me, prayer was about two things: expressing gratitude and asking for help. To replace the gratitude part of prayer I began to take time daily to reflect on everything I was grateful for. I found this process to be just as effective as offering thanks to HF in prayer. I felt calm and peaceful and happier in general as I did this.
As for the part about asking HF for help, that was a little trickier. I no longer believe in a HF who grants us our wishes. I’m willing to concede that He may at times bless us but I believe it is more of a random and rare event if it does happen at all. I do not believe asking for blessings through prayer or living “worthy” increases the odds of blessings coming our way. When I used to pray, there were two kinds of blessings I would ask HF for:
1) I would ask Him to bless things I COULD control
2) I would ask for blessings I could NOT control
If it’s something I have control over then I do what I can to make it happen. For example, rather than ask HF to help me get a raise at work, I’ll work harder and ask my boss for ways I can improve.
If it’s something I cannot control (
and this has been the biggest game-changer for me) I make peace with it. After 30+ years of praying and 1 year of not praying I have come to the conclusion that asking HF to help us with things we have no control over sets us up for disappointment. It creates an expectation that, when not met, can cause heartache and profound sorrow. Simply accepting the things I cannot control has brought such peace into my life. I no longer hope for difficult things to change, I simply find ways to be grateful for them.
I spent Christmas this year with some family members who are not LDS. They invited me to attend their Presbyterian service and, for the first time in my life, I attended another church. I felt the Spirit. The surroundings were different. Rock band, Crosses, “Hip” Pastor, etc. But the one thing that was familiar was the people. As I looked around the congregation I saw the same countenances I have seen my whole life in LDS Sacrament meetings. I saw people who believed they were in the right place at the right time, doing what they needed to be doing to be saved. They too were feeling the Spirit at their church. No doubt about it. Interestingly, I’ve had moments the past couple years where I have seriously considered leaving the LDS church. As I considered the logistics of doing that, I wondered things like: what will I replace it with? How will I find fulfillment? How will I manage the inevitable disappointment from family members? etc. I have, without question, felt the Spirit during that process as well…
I’m sorry to hear you are going through such challenging times. Failed marriage, cancer, deaths of loved ones. Each one is enough to break an individual, let alone having to deal with the complications of all three concurrently. You end your words by stating you would love to be married to your new love in the temple but it seems you are prevented from doing so logistically (lack of financial means) and spiritually (by virtue of the bishop denying you a recommend.)
I have never been a bishop so I don’t know what kind of hard-and-fast rules they are given but it sounds to me like he is spit-balling when it comes to denying you a recommend and/or callings. You are either breaking the Law of Chastity or you are not and sharing a roof has nothing to do with the LoC. Maybe he is concerned with the “appearance of evil” but avoiding the appearance of evil is not a question on the temple recommend interview list. Your situation is unique and shouldn’t be measured against a more typical standard like young couples who are marrying for the first time, IMO.
As for the logistics of getting hitched. Is she able to work at all? Maybe government assistance would be an option? You said there is a “LOT” more to that part of the story so I’m probably not filling in all the gaps.
Really hope things turn around for your health and happiness.
One of the more common explanations I hear among us LDS folks when comments from leaders are contradictory is that the leaders were speaking to us as men when the problematic statements were made. Generally this is used to discredit past statements and archaic doctrine. But it could very easily be used here and now. For example, with regard to the recent comments made by Elder Stevenson at the NAACP luncheon disavowing the curse of dark skin, there may be members who read his comments and say to themselves, “I have been taught my whole life in this church that dark skin is a curse. The BOM is right. The BOA is right. The teachings of past prophets are right. The manual is right. Elder Stevenson was simply speaking as a man at the luncheon and is mistaken.”
I have more thoughts along this line but I will start a separate thread for that.
We have a paid cable subscription through a very major provider that allows us to view recorded shows anywhere via the internet. My wife was watching a show on her laptop last week and called me over when she saw this being advertised during a commercial break. We live in the southeastern US. DW and I recently celebrated our anniversary. We stayed in a very nice hotel and when we were being shown to our room it was pointed out that we were being offered a complimentary bottle of champagne. I am still active and hold a calling but do not currently hold a recommend – still sorting out my faith issues. I also do not see things nearly as black and white as I once did so I decided to go ahead and have a glass. I should point out that DW has always been the more moderate of the two of us with regard to the church and had no problems with my choice – which is wonderful for me. That said, it was probably the most disgusting thing I ever drank. I’m assuming the complimentary bottle isn’t “top shelf” but I would also assume that a hotel as nice as this one was would not be giving away garbage booze as a way of welcoming its customers. I know most people in this country love the stuff but man, I sure feel like I haven’t been missing much by abstaining from alcohol. From a more faith-promoting perspective, 5-10 years ago I was approaching middle age and in need of more effective ways to stay physically healthy. Previous to that point in my life I would simply start a daily jogging routine until the weight came off to my satisfaction. For some reason, the efficacy of that wore off after my 30s and for the first time in my life I found myself limiting my caloric intake in an effort to lose weight. It was difficult. Having never even tried alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, coffee, etc I had little experience in mastering my body’s desire to consume. Watching what I ate was an interesting experience for me. As I lost weight and gained mastery over the food I ate, I noticed mastery and control in other, seemingly unrelated areas of my life (control of thoughts, more desire to help others, etc.) For me it was sort of like cross-training. I saw a video of the MMA fighter Conor McGregor riding a bike as part of his training regiment and it sort of clicked for me that just like bike-riding can help a fighter, watching what I eat can help in areas of my life I might not expect. For me, it was a fascinating and unexpected lesson in the value of the WoW.
Sorry I’m like a week late to the party. Only today am I noticing that this thread I started has some new life. rrosskopf wrote:
I jumped into several conversations where the topic clearly called for evidence and a conclusion … If you don’t want an answer, then don’t ask the question.
I don’t have much to add to the conversation, I only wish to clarify that in starting this thread I wasn’t asking a question. In my original post I was simply stating that I disagree with those who claim that Joseph’s lack of education is proof that the BofM is true. If the book is true, then in my opinion it was written by many men who came from even humbler circumstances than Joseph and were likely far less educated from a formal standpoint. The title of my post is actually a quote from a family member who is a very firm, ardent believer.
Do I believe in the book? I’m still working that out. If God were to somehow give me the option to choose whether or not the book is true I would certainly wish for it to be true. Prior to experiences that led me to question I had been a believer for nearly 40 years, was born into the church and am surrounded by family on both sides who are members. Not to mention my children who are coming into adolescence and know nothing other than this gospel. For me, no longer believing is the path of MOST resistance. I desperately want the book to be true.
