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I would just like to thank everyone again for their thoughts and input in case this thread gets closed. I understand that I am not suffering from a faith crisis so I want you all to know that I truly appreciate the resource this website was to someone like me. Though I never considered leaving the church, this experience did cause me to look at a number of important faith-based issues from an entirely new perspective. It has been a learning experience and I am confident I will get through it. Many of you have suggested professional help and if the problem persists for me much longer I will certainly seek that out. For now, it has been really helpful to hear from people who have walked in my shoes and I want to thank everyone for helping me look at my situation from your perspectives. God bless.
Rob4Hope, I just want to answer this question you posed me:
can you put a finger on what is in your past or perhaps teachings that make you value being “the first” so much, even after years of marriage?I really don’t think there is anything in my past that makes me value it “so much.” Like I said, and I genuinely believe this, I would have married her even if she had several extended sexual relationships before me (meaning even if I would not have been her first in ANY way.) I would have married her and probably not ever shed a single tear over the matter if she would have been forthcoming.
I think what happened with me was after the fact. She told me during our very first “sex history talk” that she had never had sex, that she was a virgin but that she had done “some things” with boys she should not have. After several of these talks I finally got tired of speaking in generalities and I asked her straight up how far things went. “Kissing and touching” were the exact words. I wanted further clarification and asked about kissing below the belt. She responded with a very clear, “No.”
At that point I felt like I knew her experience level and something inside me (subconsciously to a large degree) allowed myself to really grab on and be excited that I would be her first experience with regular and oral sex. Through the ensuing 14 years that was my mindset. She had been touched and kissed in some places but oral sex and regular sex was something only she and I shared.
Now mind you, these are things I thought and took comfort from years ago. Don’t misunderstand and think that every time we were intimate I was saying to myself, “Boy, I sure am glad I’m her first because if not this would be miserable.” I honestly had not thought about any of these things for many years. But it was something that I appreciated and held dear. I was glad that she saved those things for me. Not that people who don’t are anything less, but I appreciated it and valued it greatly. It was why I saved them for her. So when I had to shift my thinking it was painful, that’s all.
I don’t think it was some deep expectation or religious brainwashing that gave me an unreal expectation. I dated a girl in high school for a short time and she was not a member and had done all things sexual with many partners. I was 16 and it was at that point that I decided (and I remember this vividly) that if the one I fell in love with were not a virgin that would not be a deal breaker for me. I had already decided that long before I met my wife. I think that my pain and hurt was all retroactive because I allowed myself to believe and take comfort in being her first after she told me I would be.
I agree, Marty. I understood from the first moment she told me that ultimately it changed nothing and did not matter. I knew it would not break up our marriage or anything to that extreme. And it won’t. I still don’t like the word “possessive” in this context but as Roy points out, that word means different things to different people and I think that is all there is to it. No point in belaboring that issue and it doesn’t offend me if people use the word differently than I would. I think at this point people are responding to each other on this thread as much as they are to me which is great. I just want to be clear that I don’t consider my wife “used gum” or anything near that. If my wife had told me that she had long sexual relationships with several people before we were married I would have married her still. 100%. I just wanted to know her level of sexual experience before we got married because mine was ZERO.
Rob4Hope, were my wife and I to get divorced (which is not happening!) I would not not even ask any of the people I would subsequently date about their sexual history once I was ready to move on and look for another spouse. Like you, I would assume (and hope) they were experienced. For me, it was just that as kids who were marrying for the first time, I wanted to know how experienced we were compared to each other and I feel I had a right to ask and know that information. But I feel that changes later in life.
I think that as I take in all the advice, suggestions and points people are making I am realizing that the main cause of my hurt and emotion was just having to adjust to the idea that I was not my wife’s first when I thought that I was. It is just taking me some time to get used to it. How long will that be? I don’t know but it is getting better by the day.
Those of you who were your spouse’s first probably cherish that fact (and if not then you should.) Not because it is necessary for a happy marriage but I would hope that it was something you valued and appreciated and considered special. Now after years of marriage if you found out that you were not the first you would have to change your mindset some. You would still love your spouse of course (I would hope!), but you could no longer cherish the fact that you were their first … because you found out you were not. It is a difficult transition. Very difficult. You think things are one way for 14 years then in 14 seconds it changes. Those were not things I wanted to let go. EVER. Now I am having to and it hurts. I’ll get used to it but the process of adapting is excruciating at times for me. But I will adapt because ultimately it is not worth carrying on in it and it doesn’t matter in the long run anyhow.
My last post had very little to do with my current feelings. I think I have done more healing in the last 3 days than I have the entire month previously and I credit much of that to the input and council I have received directly from this very message board. I was just having trouble understanding where some folks were coming from. It seemed like I was getting advice from people who weren’t reading things I was saying. I sincerely appreciate all the input and I apologize if my last post was curt. I think I am being misunderstood – which is fine. I’ll try one more time to clarify and if that doesn’t help it really doesn’t matter. My main purpose was to hear from a few folks who have walked in my shoes and I have already achieved that objective and it has actually been more helpful than I anticipated. Here are a few recent quotes I would like to address:
“I think that comes from a place of being rejected for 30+ years and feeling more like I would answer, “Hell – if she would love ME NOW, I could care less who she did what before we were married.”I hope I have not said anything to make you believe I DON’T think or agree with this statement. As I have said many times, I would have married her regardless of what she told me when we were dating – sex or no sex. I loved her and would have loved her regardless of what she did before we were married. Please don’t misunderstand that. I still maintain that given the opportunity to go back and share only with a spouse that which was given to a teenage fling most would say yes and take that opportunity. My wife is one of them – she told me this voluntarily that she would love to take it back.
“Mfree, your wife seems like a wonderful woman. Make sure to tell her that……”I know this poster said he hadn’t read the entire thread so maybe he missed it, but I have tried to make it very clear that I hold nothing against my wife and that I love her more than anything and I tell her so daily. She also knows it through my actions. We have a great marriage – better than all of our friends I am certain.
“In my life, I have been hurt by people forcing me to share what I wanted to only share with Christ.”I never forced anyone to say anything and there is no reason to believe I did from any of my posts. This kind of felt like I was being lectured to here. Please read the thread if you are going to tell me what to do or not do. I made it clear that this information came out through an innocent conversation on how to raise our middle school daughter. I was not prying or forcing anyone to say anything or confess sins or however you are considering it to be.
“Visiting with LDS girlfriends, I believe your situation is more common that you would think”My wife is very social and is a stunningly attractive woman. She talks to her girlfriends about lots of things and when the girlfriends talk about who the husbands would pick in the ward, my wife’s name always comes up. She has told me that in those conversations with these women that many of them had more sexual experience than their husbands, so I am aware of that and agree with you I think.
“My girlfriends in that situation have stated that it was never an issue.”If my wife had answered me honestly way back when we were dating you would not be reading this post. I would have no issues or sorrow. None. We would be married and I would not be typing right now (and please remember that she had every right to not tell me and I’m not angry about her not telling me. At the same time I believe I had a right to ask that in a potential spouse. If that was something that was important for me to know then that is my prerogative.) The crux of the matter for me is that this has all been GREATLY amplified by the fact that I went so long thinking things were one way when they weren’t. Again, it shouldn’t matter but the fact is perspective matters to all of us a great deal. My perspective for 14 years was that I was her one and only in a certain way and then that changed in an instant. That isn’t easy. I would guess that more than half of the guys for whom their wife’s sexual experience was “never an issue” would probably have an issue if 15 years later down the road they were told it was actually a lot more involved than was originally let on. Should it matter? Probably not but I promise that it would for most of them and they would need time to process and recalibrate things. I have heard from several people (in this thread and through pms) who have walked in my shoes and NONE of them said anything like, “Dude, I’m not sure what your problem is. When I found out everything after years of marriage I had no problem because we were so happily married it didn’t matter to me.” Nobody has said that. They all have great sympathy and understanding and to one degree or another struggled as I am. Interestingly many of them had done similar or worse things than their spouse before marriage and it still brought them sorrow and heartache which I find very surprising.
Rob4Hope, She has been great. Of the two of us I am the more connected to my emotional side. She likes to sweep things under the rug and doesn’t talk about her feelings. That said, she also has a tendency to get frustrated when having to re-explain and/or rehash things. This is part of why we ended up here. When we were dating I was making efforts to communicate and know her history. It wasn’t because things would be a deal-breaker for me if I found out (she didn’t know that as it turns out) but more just so I knew who I was marrying. She was obviously never fully forthcoming and I could sense that so I continued to press her to open up. Well, continually pressing grated on her back then and she would get frustrated. It was really the only sour point we ever had as a dating couple – me wanting to know more and her wanting to leave those things in the past and undiscussed. So ultimately I dropped it, made the incorrect assumptions I did based on the somewhat misleading information she gave and lived with that for 14 years.
Well, we have both grown up and are now in our mid-thirties. She has been surprisingly patient with me as my emotions have continued to bubble up every few days after several “good days.” She listens, holds me and is not frustrated in the least. I have really been amazed with her, especially considering the natural dispositions she possesses. I mentioned in one of my posts how she told me she feels like a third party looking on. I believe this to mean that she has completely and entirely repented and moved on from the experience (something I never doubted to begin with.) But she really separates herself from it – she is literally a new person which is what the Atonement is for and I believe it has worked in her case. She is only saddened when I am saddened but it is completely not in relation to her past actions – she has told me that this experience with me has not brought on new remorse or anything like that and I am glad to hear it.
I can tell you her strength has made all the difference. If she were to get impatient with me and tell me to “man up” I would really sink to a new low. Her compassion is saving me. Having said that, were I in a marriage with an indifferent wife it would not be a good marriage and I think part of why this is so challenging is because I love my wife so. If we were unhappy I would more easily be able to shrug this all off and essentially say “I don’t really care what you did and with whom” because she wouldn’t matter that much to me in a bad marriage.
I’m not sure how much you have read but I will say again that I have felt no anger. All I have experienced is great and deep sorrow that I could not shake. It would hit me at any time and any place over the past month. She has dealt with my sorrow very well. Had I said things to her like, “How could you not tell me this!” or “I had a right to be your first!” then things would likely have taken a different turn. I never said those things and never felt like I needed to either. I just wanted to understand why I was hurting more than I ever had in my life and what I needed to do to get past that. While she hates to see me this way she has told me she takes comfort in knowing how difficult that information was for me to take. She said it shows her how deeply I cherish her, how profoundly I love her and how greatly I cherish our sexual experiences as being for us and only us. She never had seen me cry to this point in our lives — aside from me getting a little teary-eyed once or twice in 15 years — and it was a little shocking for her. But to answer your question, she has been amazing through this for me. I tell her this frequently as well. She knows that I need her now more than ever and her unconditional love is helping me tremendously at this time.
Thanks again to those who have provided your experience-based input. It has been invaluable to me the past few days. As I said in my original post, this has only been going on for about 5 weeks now so it is all very fresh and to hear from some of you who are years down this road or similar roads is very insightful. I will say that the past few days have been the best yet for me from an emotional standpoint since the night this all came out. I credit that almost entirely to those of you who have taken the time to offer your experience-based perspectives on the matter. I will say that I still take exception to the whole “sexual possessiveness” idea that has come up a few times. Perhaps it is just semantics but to me the idea that my problems is sexual possessiveness rings hollow. Who would really say that given the opportunity to choose, they would choose to marry someone who had already shared those first experiences with someone else? Who wouldn’t take back giving away those experiences before marriage if they could? Who wouldn’t be saddened to find out after 15 years that their spouse had more sexual experience than they let on when you were getting to know each other? I’m sure there are some and you will likely post here about it, but I am certain those people are in the great minority. I know my wife would take it back in a heartbeat if she could. She told me so. She didn’t need to and I didn’t ask her if she would or would not, but she did say that to me. But my point is, most people would be saddened under the same circumstances. I truly believe that.
Another way to look at it might be if you were married to someone and they had a habit of putting a single red rose under your windshield along with a love note every Monday while you were at work. It would be something you would grow to love and it would be something special about your spouse that reassures you of their love and devotion. Then, after years of marriage, perhaps you run into one of his/her exes and you ultimately discover that they did that rose “trick” with every person they had a relationship with. Would those experiences mean less? They shouldn’t, but you might find yourself struggling with the fact that they didn’t only do those things just with and for you. It shouldn’t cheapen it, but for some it might.
When I find a new restaurant that I like, my first inclination is to figure out when I can take my wife so I can share this discovery with her. When I find a new TV show that I like, I first want to talk to her about it and I hope she will like it and want to watch it with me so we can enjoy it together. Sex is similar in a way to those things but on steroids. It is the ultimate show of affection and bonding and I want to share it with her and only her and for some reason (though probably not the right reasons) it helps to think that she shared those things with me and nobody else, ever. If I found out that my newly discovered restaurant was actually a favorite spot where her ex used to take her on dates then I probably would not enjoy it so much. It shouldn’t be that way but it is the natural man in me I suppose that makes me feel that it is now somehow less and I think most can relate to that. I am not saying that is how it should be, I am just saying that is why I felt as I did; not because I lost a possession. The possessiveness diagnosis to me is more how I feel about something like my bicycle. If it were stolen I would be angry, feel violated; like someone took something that is rightfully mine and had no right to do that. To me they are exclusive and evoke different emotions inside me. I don’t have any anger; not at him and not at my wife. None. Just sorrow. And I think that sorrow is just my natural reaction to realizing that what I thought she had only shared with me was also shared with someone else long before me. It’s hard to take. It is sad.
Reading back on my posts, however, I think some of the ways I chose to express my feelings and some of the words I chose do make it sound like I am possessive. Hopefully this post will help clarify how I feel now and how I felt when I learned more of my wife’s sexual past.
I don’t want this thread to become about polygamy but I will say that during this month of reflection I have come to the conclusion that if my wife were to die tomorrow I would remain celibate the rest of my days so that I could spend eternity with her and only her. It would be hard but I understand how absolutely precious she is to me in a new way – I would gladly wait 50 years to have just her for eternity. I understand I am in the minority with this line of thinking. But when I look at it the other way around, were I to die, I would be absolutely sickened to watch her from above fall for and have a relationship with another man. I am lots of things but I am not a hypocrite and I will remain faithful to this woman and only this woman for all eternity. When we were sealed it was an eternal sealing and that is my perspective. Her potential death does nothing to change that in my mind. I have also told her that in the hereafter if we find that we are supposed to practice polygamy and I am somehow turned towards the idea (which I don’t see happening) and she is not I will not do it. Even if it means I will be cast out. I will do nothing to hurt this woman in that way. Just this little tiny taste of knowing she has been with another “man” is so excruciating to me that I will never do that to any individual, much less the woman I love more than anything. Again, I am not here to debate people on this. I realize most don’t feel the way I do because most people remarry when a spouse passes and that is fine. It’s not against church doctrine, in fact I think it is encouraged. This is just my belief based on my experience. Not looking for council on this matter, but if you have experience similar to the one I have outlined in my original post I would love any and all of your input.
Thank you all for your responses. Many of them have given me some new perspective which is what I am after since this is all still so fresh. I would like to reiterate that the purpose of my posting is to seek advice from those who have had either direct or very close indirect experience with similar situations. I appreciate everyone’s opinions and you all have been kind, but at this point I am not looking for any sort of diagnosis as to what is wrong with me (unless you have personal experience in the arena.) I am just hoping to get some insight and counsel from those who have walked my path or paths similar. I do agree that I may need some counseling and I am open to this. Again, it is all only a month old and I would like to give it a few months at least so I know how I really feel about it all so I can fully evaluate it with professional help if needed. Last night my wife and I were talking about my feelings. I believe she is fully repentant and I do not question this in any way. I believe the Atonement works and has worked in her case. In fact, I believe at this point in our lives she is the purer of the two of us. She really is a Saint in every sense of the word. As I spoke with her she mentioned how this experience has been weird for her. How she feels like she is a third party looking on and offering me advice. She tells me she barely remembers the experiences and I believe her – in fact I know this to be true based on past experiences with her over 14 years and I will just leave it at that.
As for forgiveness, I don’t hold this over my wife’s head. I am not angry at her. I am not even angry that she didn’t tell me – she had that right and I respect it fully. But I do feel that going so long thinking her sexual experience level was (x) and now finding out it is (x+y) has amplified my emotions. I do wish I could have dealt with this 14 years ago or at least started the process at that time. Personally, I do believe that when two Mormon youth (or youth from any faith that preaches abstinence) marry for the first time it is within their rights to ask about sexual history. If someone saves themselves for marriage and they want that in return I personally believe they have the right to know that about a prospective spouse. As I said however, I also believe that one who has repented has the right to keep that between them and God. But I don’t feel it is wrong to ask about it and/or seek out sexual purity in a potential spouse if that is something one seeks.
Roadrunner, my emotions really mirror yours. Though I think it will be ultimately easier for me to deal with two “missteps” from my wife verses the “hundreds” you have dealt with. The situations are similar but I think there is a marked difference there. I appreciate your thoughtful response and frankly it scares me that it has carried on for you so long. This is a fear that I have. I shared this fear with my wife last night. I told her that logically I understand that this does not matter, yet at the same time nothing has mattered more or affected me in such a dramatic way in my life. I broke down and she just held me. Her love and concern for me is buoying me up through this trial of mine. If I were in a bad marriage I would be a broken man right now. I thank God that I have a woman like her in my life. Like you, I think often of the prodigal son parable and it bothers me. My wife lived how she wanted to in her youth. The two episodes of oral sex were the farthest she went but she did go to “2nd base” (and kind of 3rd base) many times with both of her boyfriends in high school. I am encouraged by the fact that I have known about the drinking and the 2nd/3rd base thing since we dated. It bothered me initially but I was able to forget those things completely in time. She also has the benefit of knowing what it is like to sin in that way, repent and return to the light so to speak. She tries to explain to me her perspective but I just can’t grasp it. Much like how she can’t fully understand what it would be like if I told her that I lied and did actually have oral sex with a girl on a couple occasions in high school in a moment of weakness. She told me she would be a mess if I said that to her, but she still can’t fully understand it. She also gets the comfort that comes with knowing she is my absolute one and only from a sexual perspective. I would also like to say to RR that I do not feel oral sex is sex. It is a form of sex which is why I am so troubled by the fact that I was able to deal with “fondling” (ie 2nd/3rd base) but be so crushed by this new revelation (3rd/4th base.) I feel oral is MUCH closer to sex than just touching or even mutual masturbation. It is hard to understand the Atonement on this matter from my perspective. How does it heal me? I have never considered it in this way.
My real issue is just a deep sorrow that I can’t seem to shake. I feel like I lost something that gave me comfort. It’s not a possessive thing in my opinion. The gospel of Jesus Christ teaches that sexual relations outside of marriage are wrong. It is part of the plan to be your spouse’s one and only. That is how it is designed and how it is supposed to work. When that changes the plan is disrupted and this has caused me great heart ache for 4 weeks now. It’s not that I feel like I own my wife’s sexuality. It’s more that I held our experiences so precious and to know she has shared some of that (more than I thought) with someone else and the idea that this fact will never change for all eternity is heartbreaking to me at this time.
