[misfit7]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

just me wrote:

Quote:

At best, he will probably only convince some of the weaker Christians that are already looking for an excuse to doubt religion.

Hey DevilsAdvocate, most of us who are here did not find ourselves on this journey because we were looking for reasons to doubt. I think we should extend that same courtesy to all people who find themselves doubting, questioning and even turning away from their former faith. The search for personal truth takes a lot of strength.

I understand that some people are mostly just looking for the truth above all else and I guess atheism/agnosticism simplifies things for many of them because it reduces some of the required assumptions they need to make by rejecting popular faith-based beliefs that aren’t directly supported by overwhelming evidence. However, I still think one of the major reasons that atheism appeals to many people is that it really is the easy way out by giving them a convenient excuse to reject any moral obligations so that they can basically live a selfish hedonistic life without feeling guilty about it. I think this is especially a motivating factor for ex-Mormon atheists because of the high demands that the LDS Church currently makes like tithing, the Word of Wisdom, time-consuming callings and meetings, etc.

.

Whoah! Back up here! (takes deep breaths and is speaking earnestly) I am always slightly (OK, maybe more than slightly) irritated when I hear this thinking. You think it’s easy to completely change your belief system? You think it’s easy to risk being ostracized by your family and friends/neighbors? Why do you think this forum even exists?

I can assure you that for many Ex-Mormons, paying tithing, Word of Wisdom, church callings and attending Church is the easy part. A person doesn’t just wake up one day and say “Well, I think I want to become immoral and party my life away and be a heathen because being Mormon and believing in a God is soooo hard and the other life seems way easier”.

It takes a whole lot of courage to walk in your own truth and follow a different spiritual path than Christianity/Mormonism. I know many loving, moral, non-smoking/non-drinking exmo’s that are great people. Your statement seems to be made on assumptions and is rather generalized.

Now, are there Atheist/exmo’s who are selfish and live a “hedonistic life”? Probably. For some, that pendulum swings kinda high for a short while but usually comes back down to center. Many are more moral, less judgemental and way more accepting as they figure out what their faith is and how to believe. I admire these people that can be so open and honest. Sometimes I feel like a big, fat phoney because I don’t have the courage that they have.

Sorry for the rant D.A. Know it’s nothing personal. Just touched a nerve…that’s all

[misfit7]

Rix wrote:

Old-Timer wrote:

misfit7, can you give us a link to something that talks about high drug abuse rates among LDS kids in Utah Valley. I’ve never heard anything about that.

You “mission-field Mormons” are so out of it! 😆 (and I’m sure there are MAJOR advantages of that…).

There have been a lot of media reports over the last few years here of the high prescription drug abuse rates in Utah…apparently highest in (southern) Utah County (and Utah County is 70-80% LDS). You can imagine the common reasoning about it — mormons don’t drink or smoke, so they find their “acceptable release” with Rx medicines. I just googled your question and found a few references:

“Prescription Pain Reliever Target Population

[Please note: we calculated each city’s rate per 100,000 (e.g. the rate of deaths, ER visits, etc. per 100,000 city residents) so we could compare cities to each other.] Data revealed south Utah County (defined as cities south of Provo) as the area most impacted by prescription pain reliever abuse. “South county cities have the most ER visits, treatment admissions, overdose deaths, shipments of prescription pain relievers into their communities, and youth in south county abuse prescription pain relievers at slightly higher rates,” said Nordfelt. “Prescription pain relievers appear more available in the south county possibly leading to higher use rates, higher mortality rates and the highest ER visits across Utah County.”

(from http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700022521/Utah-County-wants-residents-to-clean-out-medicine-cabinets.html)

A few years ago there was a documentary that showed the common process in Utah County called “Happy Valley.” Ron Williams did a great job with it, and I highly suggest it for those interested in learning about the great divide between often naive and disconnected parents from their teenage kids. In the late 90s/early 2000s, I was a drug/alcohol counselor here in Utah. I can tell you there is a consistent pattern in very letter of the law mormon parents and their teenagers…and the opiate overdoses are among the highest in the nation. Very sad, and hard to teach the parents how to deal with the problem. Ron is making a dent by at least starting the discussion here….

😥

Rix, thanks for the reference as I didn’t have one when I posted earlier.

Ray, I actually speak from experience and I’m surprised that you have heard nothing about the drug problem that seems to be running rampant with the Youth in Utah County and actually, all over our great State. There is hardly a family that I know of who hasn’t been affected by addiction in some way. Be it a child/neighbor/ward member/child’s friend…it is truly epidemic and very scary. My daughter (age 27) and I were talking about the friends that she had, who had died from an overdose. We are talking about right smack in the middle of Orem-Mormon-Utah. She immediately could count 12….that was 3 years ago. Several have died or are fighting the addiction since then. I’m not talking about the sleazy,way-ward kids, I’m talking about “Dad’s in the Bishopric”, or “Mom’s YW President” kids. The son of my best friend, died 2 yrs. ago from an opiate overdose. She was just released as Primary Pres.

Am I saying I blame the Church? Of course not. But it seems that there are a lot of parents that are being quite ‘Ostrich-like’. Thinking that all they have to do is go to the Bishop, repent, read the scriptures and say their prayers and everything will be fixed is extremely naive’.

I don’t mean to get off-topic here and hi-jack a thread. This is a topic I am very passionate about. Perhaps another thread could be started where the experts like Rix and I’m sure others, can elaborate.

[misfit7]

Rix wrote:

HiJolly wrote:

So what if we attempt to teach the truth, but for some reason we are misunderstood? I once felt a bit betrayed by God when He told me something that I then misunderstood. Finally after many years, I realized my mistake and resolved the dilemma it had produced. As I looked back on my misunderstanding and what it had caused, I could see that in real terms I had lost nothing of real value in the process. It was all good.

HiJolly

I think this has much more meaning than I first realized when I read it. If I slightly alter the process to say that I thought, or perceived that God told me something…and I didn’t understand the meaning, or purpose at the time…but later did — then realized “it was all good” in the end, I think we can apply that to a LOT of things.

I look at it in my life today as the way I “fought” the church when I discovered the white-washings of the history. I had a session with a therapist that I told my issues, and he said a few things that have changed my attitude. He first said, “so what church hasn’t white-washed their history to look good to its members?” Of course, I couldn’t think of any….

Then he said, “looking at the LDS church today, does it do more damage, or good, to society? After I said all the damaging things I perceived it had been doing, I realized the scales tipped heavily to the good side.

That all helped me a lot!

I would agree with you mostly except that the LDS church is relatively new/young. Most religions that white-wash their history as you describe are centuries old where the memory and stories of their history has faded and become sort of ‘fairy-tale-like’.

I agree that the LDS church does a lot of good in society. I wonder however, does it really do a lot of good or does it cause more damage to individual families that struggle with the Cog-Dis in their lives? What about the high rate of drug abuse among ‘good LDS’ kids in Happy Valley?

I don’t know. These are things that I think about as I wonder how far out of the ‘box’ I can be and be an active member.

[misfit7]

Old-Timer wrote:

Quote:

Unfortunately the pretending or keeping it to yourself is the only alternative.

Only for a while, misfit. Only for a while. That, too, shall pass.

I don’t keep things to myself very often. I’ve just learned how to share things, and when to share things, in a way that can be effective – and a BIG part of that is realizing that this really is MY journey, and nobody else needs to walk MY journey. They are busy trying to walk their own, and who am I to shove them callously from a path that works for them or drop a burden on them that will knock them down or crush them? Is that really what love is about – walking my own path whie throwing rocks at everyone who is walking another one?

I’m sure that’s not what you meant, but it’s important to realize that you aren’t a lone individual. You are a child, a spouse, probably a sibling, a friend, a member of multiple communities – and it’s not all about you anymore. There is a level of spiritual maturity that only can come when we face and embrace the fact that we really aren’t just individuals – here to whatever we want to do. We are part of a family – and, in the ultimate construct (whether literal or figurative), that family includes everyone who ever has lived.

What I do impacts others – and there simply is no way around that. None. None at all. My decisions impact others. That just is. I can fight it, or I can accept it, but I can’t beat it – and once I accept it, what remains is to figure out how to share my own heterodoxy in a way that has a snowball’s chance in Hell of helping. It’s NOT about pretending or keeping it to myself now, but it might be for you now.

We aren’t here to advocate staying miserable in the LDS Church. That’s not our mission. Each of the admins and moderators here has found a way to “stay LDS” and actually enjoy it – to be at peace – to WANT to do it. I’m sure we are at various levels in that journey, still, but that’s the ultimate goal – peace and joy and contentment.

We don’t “testify” much here, but I feel like I can say that I “know” it’s possible for someone to think there won’t be sunlight in the Church and then, through patience and personal growth and intentional effort, find that sunlight again – or for the first time. I can’t say it’s possible for everyone, since I have no control over others – but I certainly can say it’s possible. That much I know, because I’ve experienced it. Nothing on the outside changed, necessarily – but my vision cleared a bit and I was able to see that I had the ability to part the clouds, calm the storm and see the light again.

Some would chalk that up to divinity; some would chalk it up to mental gymnastics; some would chalk it up to a believing spirit; some would chalk it up to wishful thinking. I really don’t care how anyone else classifies it; I only care that it is.

Thanks for your response, Ray. I can see that you are the perfect person to be a moderator on this Forum. I’m sure it is helpful to many that are trying to figure out how to do the mental gymnastics or just plain figure out what their belief really is. You are an example that given the right circumstances, one can stay active if one chooses to do so.

Fortunately for me, I don’t have to pretend. I don’t broadcast my belief for all of Happy Valley to hear (I’m a born and raised Ut. County gal) but I can live in my truth comfortably. I don’t “throw rocks” at anyone that walks a different path at all. I always taught my Primary kids to truly love and accept friends of other religions with respect and no judgement, just as I teach my son to love and respect his friends that are LDS, Evangelical, Catholic, etc.

I probably should have written that “Unfortunately the pretending or keeping it to yourself is ‘sometimes‘ the only alternative”. It is very disheartening to me when that is the only option for fear of ostracism from family and friends. Not only is it fear of that for your own self, but for your children and how they will be perceived with an ‘apostate’ parent. Particularly in Utah County where the pressure is so strong. Pressure to ‘appear’ as the perfect, righteous family.

I just feel that fear of truth destroys the soul. Having to constantly hold your feelings and thoughts/questions in, hurts the heart. This forum provides that safe place for the Questioning. That’s a very good thing! (not to get all Martha Stewart-like on ya )

[misfit7]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

misfit7 wrote:

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

In my opinion, Church members can easily be completely outside the box as far as not believing at all in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, the Bible, or even God and still be more comfortable about staying LDS than they are with any realistic alternatives. I don’t agree at all with many ex-Mormons who seem to think any members that don’t believe in everything the Church teaches should automatically feel obligated to leave the Church and make a big stink about it.

I agree that for the most part, members stay because of the social or cultural environment…for many that’s all they know. But I don’t think that it is so easy for people. Particularly over a long period of time and when more things are discovered about the church that may be difficult to rationalize or accept. Eventually (for many) the cognitive dissonance begins to take it’s toll. Ultimately, the comfortable feeling you speak of becomes not so comfortable. A person can actually feel quite miserable juggeling and pretending when they are afraid to walk in their truth.

I’m not saying it is easy to keep quiet or even pretend to believe when you don’t, what I meant to say is that this is sometimes relatively easy compared to some truly undesirable alternatives like being shunned and disrespected by family and friends or possibly even divorce. Beyond selfish thinking some non-believing members may not want to upset other members that are happy with the Church if they don’t have to. As far as I’m concerned other members can question the Church when and if they feel ready to take that step on their own.

Thomas Stuart Ferguson spent a lot of time and money doing archaeological digs looking for Book of Mormon evidence but eventually gave up on this idea after the Book of Abraham papyrus fragments the Church owns were translated in 1967. However, rather than leaving the Church or writing anti-Mormon propaganda, he mostly kept quiet about his loss of faith. Personally I think this kind of thing will only increase now that the internet is so popular.

Unfortunately the pretending or keeping it to yourself is the only alternative. You are right. It is sad to me however, that this culture places the CUB (Closet Un-Believer) in that position. I also feel that it is sad that it is considered “selfish” to be honest and be able to live your own truth.

You know, when it comes right down to it, each one of us are in charge of our own spiritual path be it in or out of the LDS Church. Sometimes as a Mormon, I think we feel so responsible for our spouse, our children, everybody else’s testimony and that to me is quite co-dependent. Maybe we feel that way because of all of those YW lessons, RS lessons in years past that sort of taught us that we were (particularly us moms). True ‘Love Without Conditions’ allows us to follow our own journey without guilt or worry of estrangement.

My point is that for some people and many that I personally know, the ‘keeping it to oneself’ can take its toll especially after years of doing it. But many people do and I guess as Ray pointed out, that is precisely what this Forum does. Help people figure out how to stay, while juggeling the thoughts, testimony challenges, new info about the Church that troubles us.

[misfit7]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

Rix wrote:

…how much can you “disbelieve” and still be comfortable staying LDS? For example, can you believe Joseph may not have physically done all the things that are claimed in the JS story…and stay LDS?

Can you believe the BoM is fiction, and stay LDS? Or even the Bible?

Can you consider God to be either non-existent, or not a perfected human as most Mormons believe (ie, a guiding force, or energy…but not a “person”), and stay LDS?

…I would like to know how far outside the box YOU think one can be, and still stay LDS…

In my opinion, Church members can easily be completely outside the box as far as not believing at all in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, the Bible, or even God and still be more comfortable about staying LDS than they are with any realistic alternatives. I don’t agree at all with many ex-Mormons who seem to think any members that don’t believe in everything the Church teaches should automatically feel obligated to leave the Church and make a big stink about it.

Consider the consequences, sometimes getting along with people is more important than being right (or assuming that you are right). Trying to burst people’s bubble is just as likely to make them mad at you rather than ever convincing them to agree with your opinion in many cases. Personally, I think many active Mormons are not even very familiar with the actual doctrines and history of the Church to begin with and for many it is mostly just a social club or cultural tradition where they simply feel comfortable around other Mormons and don’t really care that much about how exactly we got to this point.

I agree that for the most part, members stay because of the social or cultural environment…for many that’s all they know. But I don’t think that it is so easy for people. Particularly over a long period of time and when more things are discovered about the church that may be difficult to rationalize or accept. Eventually (for many) the cognitive dissonance begins to take it’s toll. Ultimately, the comfortable feeling you speak of becomes not so comfortable. A person can actually feel quite miserable juggeling and pretending when they are afraid to walk in their truth.

[misfit7]

Old-Timer wrote:

misfit7 – as an actual ward activity

Oh, I see. My husband posts on here and told me about this ‘Bunco’ thread. I wanted to see what was being said. I was in a Bunco group that was together for approximately 10 yrs. There were 12 friends that met together each month and each lady took a turn hosting. We ate wonderful food, shared recipes, laughed a lot and usually wrapped it up by about 9:30. We each brought $10 and gave it to the lady that had her turn next month. She bought gifts for various prizes from high score, to low score, most Buncos, etc. Everybody got a gift. No one left empty handed. The prizes weren’t the reason we looked forward to it. It was the friendship, that female bonding thing….and the great food!

About 3 yrs into it, one lady told us she had to quit. Apparently, her Stake President had spoken about the “Bunco craze” at Stake Conference and said what a horrible thing it was and cautioned the members about them and encouraged anyone that was participating to choose other activities to do. Her husband told her she better quit, so she felt she had no choice. I was a little stunned. There was nothing going on…we were doing nothing wrong. Just a bunch of gymnastics moms that wanted to get together each month. What was the harm? These ladies supported each other in tragedy. One lady was diagnosed with breast cancer, we supported her and rejoiced in her recovery. When I lost my daughter in a car accident, these women donated to a charity that is dear to my heart, Anasazi, in my daughters honor. Pretty wicked stuff going on at those Bunco nights.

Now, should Bunco be a ward activity? Not hardly. I don’t see the purpose, especially if there is money involved. It sounds like the ward Activity Chairman was getting a little lazy in coming up with something fun to do. I don’t know…I kinda miss the old Ward Bazaar’s and Gold and Green Balls, myself. Now that was fun!

[misfit7]

So clarify things for me. Are we talking about the popular game of Bunco as a sanctioned ‘ward activity’? Or are we talking about Bunco nights that are attended by LDS women (or couples) in someone’s home? (not being a “ward function”, just a gathering.)

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