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Ray – Thank you. Your compliment made my day. I always love your insights and having you see my posts as helpful just made me soar. Thanks. Prayers are on their way. Sincerely – May you feel God’s hand in yours tonight – and in the days to come. For myself I have ceased expecting church meetings to feed my spirituality. When they do – I count it as a bonus. No I am not a saint. I sat through this past weeks Sacrament meeting in cringe mode. Mid way through I forced myself to make my Sacrament meeting the best for me. I grabbed a note pad, my scriptures and I started feeding my spirit. I read Matthew 5 then moved to Psalms. I slowly let the beautiful words soak in. I let the holy ghost remind me to look around the ward and see who wasn’t there and make a mental list to check in with them. Not to get them to come back, but just to let them know someone remembered. I’m behind on finishing the list. But I made good progress. It’s taken many years for me to understand the difference between religiousosity and spirituality. At this season I believe the religion of my birth needs my spirituality – more than I need something from it. That may change. I know people who needed the services and connections that being LDS provide. That is one of the positive things our demanding faith does provide. Right now though, I work to create a spirit in every day of my life and carry it into the chapel of religious birth.
I also readily acknowledge the fresh learning in a different environment can create a happy catalyst to my spirit.
I had a woman tell me I was an idiot. The entire mess landed all of us in the Bishop’s office. It got kind of ugly. I think that’s why tip toeing happens. If I squeal or correct someone – I’m the one considered in the wrong – especially when it’s a leader. We have this superiority/ranking system, that covers for the “good” guy and discards the “bad” guy. I’ve seen it high councils, in Bishoprics, in wards (with who is in or considered in). It is another massive human failing. So it’s not so much tip toeing as deciding what course you want to take. If the relationship is failing anyway whats the point.
In my case I had been arrogant. The woman who had a gripe was right. I didn’t do anything blatantly wrong – like steal or hit, but I said somethings with an attitude that cut some people deep. But popularity was on my side. I was the Young Woman President and beloved. My image and calling I sort of out ranked her. Her comments were seen as undermining and so on. In the court of LDS appeal I was acquitted and sanctified. I really believed those judgements were true and that she was a woman with a jealous gripe. Then one day when the incident was far gone I witnessed another similar event – and suddenly as an outside observer I realized I had been just what she saw. Maybe I hadn’t meant it, maybe she was overly sensitive – or maybe I was a jerk and idiot.
I don’t to this day, know how many people I have done similar things to over the years. I imagine more than I would like to count. I can be very zealous when I have a cause I believe in. I can be very animated, dramatic and effective. In those heady moments I am so self focused it’s amazing. And if people like my energy and presentation they grant me miles of forgiveness – even are blind to my errors. They are on my side and it really helps in a war of hurt hearts. I’ve been there I know.
So we get to choose and yes, if a conversation of healing can be had, do it. Because it really can help. I’ve seen a couple of them and they are magical. That said – it’s usually hard to not be hurt or blamed and that makes it worse.
Mom to 11- I too am sorry and completely empathetic to the pain you and your husband our feeling. I also agree with Ray and others that this is unseemly, unchristian, and many things “un”. I also know that it is human nature. Poor human nature but human nature none the less. The part that makes it hardest is that church would a place you could be free from it or at least so blatantly. And it can really rip your heart. I have also come to the conclusion that the idiot being the idiot maybe so blind they have no idea they are inflicting pain. I don’t mean that to excuse them but I know in my life history I have been a jerk to people and not known it. I usually figure it out when I’ve had something hurt me – then I see how my actions and arrogances (that I thought were leadership) were really destructive behavior to a person.
A book that has helped me learn to understand these traits is Anatomy of Peace. Through multiple readings I have learned to see my blindnesses and my hurts in a new light.
I hope you can find a place to heal your hurt and heart. I know for my grandfather it took upwards of 40 years to heal from the hurt of a thoughtless, overzealous bishopric member. But I also attest that healing will come. Good luck. I’ll be praying for both of you.
As a lds member who has attended evangelical services I see your point. Our meetings are very placid. Having attended both enough to come to my own conclusions – I think both sides could take some pointers from the other to improve their worship services. It will be hard for you to have a good answer for it. Other religions have full time paid ministers, pastors, rabbi’s, etc. This allows them the ability to have those motivational, enthusiastic addresses we all yearn for. Life is long, lonely, and uninspiring at times. An enthusiastic address can do wonders. And music. For me I find the evangelical music routine and mundane. At least in our area, they seem to have 5 tunes and rotate different words through them. The plus though is that enthusiasm, whether they have a choir or congregation hymn, it’s more like a rock concert. The words are shot up onto a video screen with religious imagery behind it. The music is accompanied by a live band. People can sit and sing, or stand with arms held high in prayer, they could hug others and sway back and forth. It really creates a mood. Which then creates the learning challenge.
We are told we will feel the spirit. I have learned that it takes a long time to know the difference between your emotions being touched and the spirit reaching you. Sometimes they are so close it’s tough. No one can teach someone else what that difference feels like because it is as unique as your taste buds.
Your best bet would be to tell your friend or yourself you understand and hope that someday you might have a chance to influence how your sacrament meeting will go. Good luck.
Ours is awesome. He only shows up at Christmas with goodies. Counts us as seen the rest of the year. Hawkgrrl – one of those wonderful “The devil wears pants to church” voicers made a direct hit on our college graduated daughters facebook. My daughter is one of the most dedicated, practicing members of the church. She honors and loves so much of it. She is independent but not a rabble rouser. One day during the “pants” debate my daughter posted on her personal facebook wall a comment thanking her friends for their civility in their discourse on the issue. She hadn’t expected her compliment to even impact a family friend of ours. This friend is a middle aged mom, our two families have been lifetime friends. My kids thought their kids were cousins when they were little because of the time we spent with them. This adult friend, jumped in on my daughters wall and commented passionately about “the devil wears pants to church…..” It
was a strong, thoughtless diatribe. After my daughter cooled down, she choose to quietly delete our friends post. My daughter wanted to continue the spirit of courteousness alive on her face book. Our friend was not so eager. Since her comment had been deleted from my daughter’s page, she headed for her page and wrote an even more intense post, publicly announcing that my daughter was blinded by this, etc. etc. I can not explain the emotions those written words caused. My friend should know better, and if she had a concern is old enough and wise enough to have chosen a different method to address her concern. So I know full well the depth and impact that the direct horribleness of the pants event was. Not only did I see the other awful insults and death threat, but it arrived in our home through a long loved friend. I couldn’t speak for days. I was ill.
It was these events that really caused me to search my own responses. For the first time my life I was ill beyond the pale. If everyone doesn’t see it my way I do understand. I just knew that continued bombing wasn’t going to help me. Maybe learning and forgiving would. Thanks for your thoughts.
I have loved reading your thoughts. Thanks for sharing them. Since I tend to be long winded I hope I can address the seeds of my feelings concisely. I don’t know if you read the full last line of my original thought – but I tried to present the idea that as a woman and an active member I see things differently from her. I really have formulated a personal answer that I would share on that matter. I find it scripture and history based and is validly supportive of pro-active women. (I won’t go into it all here). Over the past 3 months I have been a central observer of two strong religious organizations responses to one another when they differ. I have been stunned at the equal vehemence and disregard for the observance of their own christianity toward each other. Most of us saw it clearly in The Wear Pants to Church war that took over. We probably saw it in the election. Additionally I watched it in a National Christian Performing group our family is apart of. I imagine Christ cringed watching his brothers and sisters go at each other so viciously all in the name of him. Those events and the close hits that arrived at my home and family because of them caused me to search. In the searching I realized that a key teaching that all the great spiritual leaders taught was treatment of others. Ghandi, Buddha, and Christ share this in common.
As I watched the Sister Dalton threads two things kept tickling my heart. The first was the parable of the good samaritan. I know I don’t need to re tell it, but I kept trying to imagine her beaten on the side of a road, would I stop and help. She could be my enemy, we don’t see eye to eye. I don’t know how much we don’t see eye to eye. Maybe only a little, but would I see her humanity and care deeply enough for her to see beyond our differences? I hope so. I would like to imagine I am that type of person. At the same time – the sermon on the mount invites us “to do good to those who despitefully use and persecute us.”
In short I don’t want to continue to be a good person in name only. Sister Dalton’s words were and are an opportunity for me to check my heart and decide what is most important to me. I still stand for women, for Emma who lobbied for a cleaner room in the school of the prophets – from it came a Word of Wisdom. I stand with women who wanted to be charitable and who banded together to do so. That banding created a potentially great women’s organization named Relief Society. I stand for matriarchs as well. And many many more powerful examples of what women can, will and should do. For me, as a women, I must forgive-even if an apology or correction isn’t presented. So since I still don’t know her reasons or her intent I feel compelled to try to fully give the benefit of the doubt and go forward with my vision of women still firmly etched in my heart.
Thanks again for all of your thoughts. You have made my day today.
I’ve let this topic roll in my head for a few days. I heard about it through my husband who read it on a different board. At the time he read it and even now, I thought it was insightful on communities in many ways. I apologize if what I am about to print comes out wrong. It’s not intended that way. I’m struggling with phrasing.One of the standard practicing assumptions when someone becomes disaffected or struggles is the idea of offense. We’ve all heard it and wrestled with it, but from a certain point of view the reactions we have expressed could easily be viewed as looking for offense. The entire address was not a rip and burn session. One particular paragraph jumped out at listeners and reactions were expressed.
Did Sister Dalton mean it, express it, what ever in the way it has been received. I don’t know. I don’t know if there is anyway to know. But maybe we let it get under our skin. As this thread continues I sense that may have happened. I also agree that many main stream practicing members have no idea about this, or if they do, it will probably be washed over by something else.
I say that because I find that some of the very issues that end up here – only end up here. There was huge concern over Elder Bednar’s address at BYU-I over facebook useage. The flame of it burned along brightly. Yet I didn’t see any drop in facebook by anyone. In fact the next GC we were encouraged to use the internet to spread the Gospel. This past election and wear pants to church explosion clearly demonstrates that Elder Bednar’s inflaming talk has been forgotten by everyone. I think Sister Dalton’s words will do the same. Yes some young women’s president might use it. But just as easily and kindly that case of history points to a different premise and that point could be made by another caring adult.
Over my lifetime in the church I have watched tides roll and be forgotten with such intensity that it rivals the death of Michael Jackson over shadowing the death of Farrah Fawcett. I think of things like “Raising the Bar”, “Fourteen Fundamentals” (so far I have not heard it repeated once on a ward or stake level yet.), Brief Closing prayers (this was a 1980’s GC talk and got a ton of mileage in my area – then gone), The Block service program – totally different than originally outlined. Stay at home mothers was gently changed to “Be at the cross roads of their lives”
I’m going to give Sister Dalton a pass on this one. I know I’ve said some stupid and inflammatory remarks in my life time, some out of anger, some out of fear, some out of an assurance that I was right. I keep hoping people will cut me slack, forgive me, or have amnesia. If the topic comes up I have my responses prepared to clarify it as I see it, for I do see it differently, but I’d like to be a person that points out those differences in love and not in defense.
Congratulations on your invite DB. You are not the bottom of the barrel. You and Kevin have given your callings a brightness that you may never know. Your words and example will be and are a big help to entire families. I wish I could attend. It sounds like an awesome weekend. Wow Johnh – you are a follower of Bruce’s. I knew Bruce in my teens, we grew up in the same stake. Cool. On the over the pulpit/conference talks – I think more “Christ related” talks. Either strong talks using or deciphering a parable he taught, or examining events in the New Testament that demonstrate the attributes we should be seeking to do. For me we make this verbal stance about telling non-members that Christ is in our name, but I hear more Joseph Smith restoration talks on a local and often GC level. If Christ is really our anchor lets give his life more verbal time. To me that is both front and center, deeply spiritual and personally reflective for all of us. In short a way to touch his wounds with our hearts.
