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Congratulations Thoreau – In response to your comment about a church that encourages family – I find one of my biggest thorns is the increase in meetings we have. I was 17 when the present “3 hour block” schedule came to pass. When the church changed to it – all of the other meetings during the week were permanently cancelled. Everything was to be completed on Sunday, leaving the rest of the week for family, etc. This was drummed into members in the area I grew up in.
Now some 30 years later, we not only filled in the week, we added to Sundays – so yes suddenly leaders in your position are swamped. I commented on this to my bishop the other day. He looked at me like I was nuts. He said – that had never been the plan. This is one area where I would love to research the original letters that were sent out church wide and get clarification on.
I would love to couple those letters with Elder Uchtdorfs admonition about the busyness of life that he just made this past conference – and then ask – What?
I agree with everyone’s suggestions about handling this. You’ll figure it.
Bishop Bill – I too see much progress in this matter. I also tend to have impatient moments. I want a Berlin Wall moment. When the wall was first opened, it was just that, opened. People could now walk, bike and pass through – but the Wall – the symbol of separation still existed and it’s effects were still felt. Then one day – the actual wall was struck, people climbed up it, over it, pulled friends over it. The holes grew and eventually – well you know the rest.
The other day when I read your request for feed back I had had one of those Sundays where I saw the pain of traditional members judgments on others with less than “Ensign Cover Families”. That really ires me. I felt that the podcast (just part 1) didn’t do much for either side of the wall in the moment. All of that collided in my response. I ache for both sides of this experience. I also know – not believe that there is a mighty, heavenly purpose in this. As an active participating member of the church – I see my goal as 3rd Nephi 18 22- 26 person. I have always been an 11th article of faith supporter, and I think it gets overlooked, too much. All of these things set me off.
I guess for me that impatience is the stumbling block or blinder. It’s not that I want a world that is flawless, I don’t expect that. I just yearn to help people find their fullest healing and potential. I believe deeply in spirituality that changes lives. I see the principles in the Book of Mormon having that capacity. I’d love to see the old negative traditions wiped away.
Anyway – thanks for reading and responding to my novel length posts. I’ve really enjoyed it. Good luck with your efforts.
Bill- Thanks for the clarification on the recordings. That alone may help. As to the idea of someone leaving and coming back. I completely know that people can do it. My daughter had a BYU religion professor who did, I have an uncle who left in the 1970’s over “science vs. religion”, his wife divorced him, etc. He came back remarried, sealed the works. Maxine Hanks made the choice and so did others.
So yes it happens – My concern though is still with spouses or believing friends and family who hear this and don’t realize it was many years and painful hours in the making before he returned. As I read, meet, and talk with family members who have “lost” members they want an immediate return to the way things were. They want an instant Alma the Younger or Road to Damascus moment. I worry that this will present the idea that these wishes can happen.
However hopefully traditional believers might listen to the podcast and maybe find some support for their family member and that might help. I hope it does because for most people this a long road with little guidance for the outsiders.
Bill- I am not sure but I felt like I only heard half of the interview. I thought I listened to it fully but it ended at about the point where I thought he’d share his change of vision process. For instance, did he just wake up and see the resources from new eyes or did he have some step by step experience that led him to move into the “judging by spiritual guidelines”. I also found him very soft spoken, maybe even dispassionate considering the extremes he has presumptively covered. I know every person is not high energy but I never sensed that he deeply struggled or that he enthusiastically returned. Which then makes me wonder how “real” his experience was. That’s where voice recordings can be hard.
In short though it is a nice thought that he found peace through a full return to the LDS faith and traditions, I’m not sure I see it as a validation that everyone can feel what he felt. For me I (at the present) sense that full dedication to the LDS faith is as Terry Given’s says – a choice. Yes we each get influenced or affected, but I see plenty of people who have discovered all the warts and really never crash or their crash doesn’t manifest the same way. (I’m not just talking about the Big guys like Bushman, etc.- I attended an Open Stories event and met many day to day’ers who do). I’ve also met people who really couldn’t care about the history warts but social or personal issues wreck them on the shores of LDSdom.
His story is hopeful to those who hope they can return or their family members can return, but I think it’s double edged. Once we see someone “who has” returned we get impatient with others. We point to Brother So and So. He came back – He knows more. You should to. I’m not sure that’s fair.
I really was glad to listen to it. Thanks for posting.
It has always been cautioned to go slow. I was the spouse who received the news. I was atypical, I took his points on as a challenge. The two of us spent months trying to prove our points and change the other persons mind. Eventually we realized the only person who changes their mind is the person themselves. I have seen more than once that a devout spouse can really stonewall their spouse on these issues but when someone else they trust goes through it, the door opens. I suggest patience as well as deciding why it is important to you to tell her. For some relationships it makes things worse. You might want to decide what is most important to you then proceed with wisdom.
Good Luck.
My husband and I were discussing this book today I told him I thought it might be even more impactful to traditional believing members then some of us who have already begun a reconstruction of our fundamental beliefs. I see that as a very necessary in road. I think Brother Givens has been working for a while to affect the direction the stream is running. Five or six years ago we were visiting my in-laws who live in Utah, I picked up a paper that had an article about an address Givens gave at Education Week or a Symposium, anyway he was putting his beliefs out even then. He referenced that Joseph Smith was struggling to define where on the religious map Mormonism fell. In one sense we were clearly different, in another we sounded very much like many of the other denominations. He used the articles of faith as his reference point. I remember liking his thinking when I read it. At that time I had no idea about disaffections, etc. I wish Brother Givens much success.
Ray – I agree. Every step forward is a good one. Thanks for pointing it out to us. We skipped the broadcast to enjoy our Stake’s Festival of the Nativities. It was gorgeous and uplifting. They had the Christmas Broadcast running in the chapel for anyone who wanted to watch. On a side note the chapel was gorgeously decorated. White Wreaths hung on golden ribbon. Piles of deep red poinsettas banked the pulpit, sacrament table and so on. I miss flowers in church, this brought a song to my heart. “Locking out” – It happened for nine years in the Stake I live in. The Stake Pres. created a whole new order. No sacrament passing in the foyers – So parents who took babies to the hall never got a chance. There you were either having a disruptive 2 year old, and causing the spirit to leave the meeting, or missing the ordinance. You couldn’t have both. But yes chapel doors were shut and held closed from the meetings opening until after the sacrament was complete. Then a flood of late comers could come strolling in. I could spend hours on his style, but won’t. I use it only to show that even up the chain – amazing things happen. Locking out doesn’t surprise me.
“make our weaknesses become strengths. (I learned that one in the Mormon Church)” cwald – Have you been lookin’ at the Book of Mormon, again?
Beautiful Wayfarer- Congratulations on finding peace in your soul. Thanks also for instructing us so much in your 1000 posts. I really appreciate your thoughts.
SamBee- Thanks for the links. I put a parentheses clause in my initial post stating “I’m not saying everything they did was great or that I admire them fully.” I meant that completely. We can have a long discussion about their genuine goodness or lack of goodness. I just found the idea that they didn’t manage their life/business choices by what everyone around them suggested. I found it very insightful idea, especially as I function in a church that can seem very one dimensional in it’s behavior requirements.
In the days since I posted the original thought I’ve allowed my mind to observe the same objective in religious people. I have considered Mother Theresa, a woman I do admire. I have looked at Ghandi, Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, Peter and Paul – the quarreling apostles. All of these lives and their actions are teaching me this freeing and hopeful principle that if I live my life in harmony with my inner calling, I believe in the long run my life and it’s objective will be worthwhile. And that fulfillment, in my estimation is inspiring in a very Godly sense.
Sam – I assure you I see plenty of flaws in the men I used for my model. Those flaws seem inherent in all of us to one extent or another. Thank you for bringing insight to the idea. I really appreciated it.
Thanks everyone for giving my idea’s your support. That means a lot. I’ve spent all day still wrapped up in the thought of being authentic in all of my life. I wouldn’t say I’ve been inauthentic but I think we all get swept by tides of opinion or ideas, and sometimes we get carried away. Mackay11 – High five to you for taking responsibility for your wrestle with influence and taking care of your health. I believe the Savior himself is one of the best examples of that principle, and we often overlook it. In the book of John there is a short sentence that explains that Jesus rose early in the morning and went out to ponder and pray. Even he, who is called the greatest of all, nourished himself so that he could serve others – in whatever capacity he was needed. Cwald – You got it. We would love to get together with you and Jwald. I know our lives are crazy through the holidays but the new year is a good time to renew. Keep in touch.
I give 2 thumbs up for the How I Stay book. I bought it for our family last Christmas. There are some wonderful gems from people who are much farther down the road. I love Armand Mauss’s statement that the more he learns the less he knows. He goes on to explain that he is now more comfortable not knowing. It actually makes him more peaceful. Hi Momto11- I was out of town last week and I travel unplugged when I can. Chieko has a plethora of books but the one I am reading right now is called Discipleship. Another great one is Lighten Up. But Discipleship has the Abuse chapter in it. I believe it was from a talk she gave at a women’s conference. At the time she was in the General Relief Society Presidency as a councilor. So I give her GA status.
Good Luck – and thank you again for your powerful healing experience.
Thank you Momto11. I just finished reading Chieko Okazaki’s address on abuse and healing – right behind it came your inspiring story of love and Godliness. Thank you, you created the most beautiful image for my mind, I could see you standing before the judgement side by side, hand in hand him and representing the best of him. I pray (and that is sincere) that you will revisit this happy conclusion often.
