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I second Kumahito on this. I often look back to Old Testament prophets for my model. Moses was this massive prophet, he brought down tablets – not once but twice – manna fell from heaven, he inspired valor, etc. As the torch passed through to the prophets that followed many of them were smaller in deeds and more of the reminder prophets. One of my personal gripes with LDS apologetics is their use of apologetics. C.S. Lewis (the over used apologist) made his claims for Christianity – inspiring. His style of deliver and choice of examples touched lives in a hopeful way. Strife had purpose, pain was Godly, etc. LDS apologetics is this shredding experience. I grant that not all of them intend to do that, and some pieces are less so than others, but the body of work becomes this. For my money they not only do damage to the church, but to the office of apologetics.
It depends on whose definition of the gospel you use. If you use the traditional idea the church and gospel are the same then no. But if you see the gospel as Christs teachings and obeying them, then yes. My grandparents lived close to multiple wards, had hometeachers that visited them, my grandfather helped build the temple in their area because they believed that worship was important. I didn’t see them day in and day out but when we were with them they always had blessings on the food and listened to our nightly prayers when we were children. So to me they were fully active in the gospel but not active in the church. Again not everyone would agree with my definition but I think you can.
I think so. I had a set of Grandparents who were some of the best christians I’ve ever met. Their ability to care for others, to lend a hand, to keep an eye out, etc was remarkable. In all the years I knew them they never set foot in the church. Though both baptised they had seasons of attendance, but it never stuck. But gospel values they never lost. I think there are more out there than we know. cwald – your lawn chair awaits. I am glad you had a hopeful day. I really do hope there are more to come, a lot more. Either way your chair is always available in our lives. cwald and jwald, Sundance and I will gladly save room for you in the metal chair section where we choose to sit. And if you want we will move up to the cushioned pews.
Silent D. I believe Orson is referencing Elder Uchtdorf’s talk from this morning. Sorry about your wife. I am the more believing spouse, which gives me a unique position, I hope you don’t mind if I weigh in for a moment. All of us have dreams when we marry and look at our future, just from reading your point of view on her responses to Hallstrom’s talk, it sounds to me like she has broken dream heartache. In my experience whenever a person has broken dream heartache – they all want the other person (organization,etc) to fix it. I know that is an impossible request. You can’t undo what you have, but until she see’s what you see, she will forever want you to get back to her dream. I wish you healing today.
We need like buttons on this board. Mercy I love your post. We do forget that he was an active member of the Jewish faith. Thanks for the beautifully written reminder. I love David Baxter’s voice. He could just read to me and I would feel enriched. His message was wonderful too. I didn’t hear the talks today but I loved the benediction. I loved his desire for love in families and with others. From Ray’s accounts it summed up the hope of this session. Even if it didn’t it is what my heart desires. I can’t wait to listen to the talks and hope they do carry hopeful messages. Thanks for the thread. Travel safe Ray. I don’t know how to copy or quote here, so I will just add to Mercy and Ray’s conversation. I happen to have the assignment for community service. I, too, struggle with the mall. I have also seen the challenge that the same leadership people are the only ones who sign-up to attend the events. I understand why I’ve been in leadership, so it’s no surprise. But I am grateful for the small events that get the ward has been involved with. Last summer we renovated, repainted, and refurbished two families rooms at our local shelter. At Christmas we stuffed 90 stockings with gifts, mittens, hats, treats, hygiene items and so on. Everyone was really generous. The youth put together 40 Easter baskets for kids in two shelters. I know it can’t rival a mall, and I really do wish the church had built water wells in barren lands, or mobile temples for distant countries, but I am glad to watch a small corner of the world strive for Zion. We are planning to repeat the same activities this year.
This is kind of a thread jack – but in a way it applies. Years ago I read a financial planning book by Suze Orman in the book she said that one of the counsels she gives people for wise money management is to donate a worthy sum to a cause you care for first and foremost. She never specified an amount or percentage, but she had learned from observation and personal practice that the donating of your money to a worthy cause somehow effects how you use your money or how it works for you after that. I no longer have the book but I remember talking about it with my husband and family – we compared it to the tithing idea. If when you are paying your portion (I am not stating how much) but that your intent is to thank Heavenly Father or to honor him will the effect happen. I think it does. Now I know there are other details involved such as feeling your donation was wisely used, etc. But I wonder if as a person who wishes to tithe, can you find peace in tithing your selected portion, disregarding the letter of the law and paying something in the spirit of the law. I don’t know the answer but the concepts and the results seem similar to me.
Les Mis is a family favorite over here. Our kids theater company put on the School version a couple years ago. The school version omits many of the more concerning points. They do present Fantine’s prostitution, but it is necessary to the story and redemption plot. For years I held Javier and Valjean in their separate corners, but last year I had a new thought. I believe they represent the human struggle in all of us. We each carry them in our hearts and depending on the circumstances we invoke that side for the moment. At times the letter of the law overrides and if it goes to long or to far the world (any world, not just church) becomes crushed under judgement. On the other hand we also are as noble as Valjean. We reach out, we forgive, we seek a higher path. Like Valjean we sometimes find it better to hide for the safety of others.
I think the greatest test for me is to find the Valjean in me and allow myself to forgive and set free the Javier in me and in the world around me. And in that desire I have a long way to go.
I can’t wait to see the musical movie that is being made.
Boy I hope I get my thoughts written correctly. For me the idea of progressing to God status has always had appeal, not because I wanted to be all powerful, but in the grandparent, great grandparent type idea. If the idea of becoming as a god playes out as I like to internalize it, I get to guide someone else through a mortal existence from a post mortal place. (I can even imagine this in an angel form instead of God.) But for me Brian’s question on earth purpose becomes more than a test of obedience. To me the test of obedience part has merit, just like any test the more you study or experience, etc, the more likely you are to do better in “final exam”. You know graduate – Earth Cum Laude. I see life more has a lesson, with multiple mini lessons in it. Some of them I will understand, embrace, apply and succeed in – others, no matter what it may be a lesson I have to re learn. But with eternal growth I can take my lessons and experience and tutor someone else. For me I get to lean my vision into the LDS frame work. It’s the only frame work that I can claim my idea and not be completely rejected on. And maybe this tiny church is that for some of us, The only one and true, because it’s a place that it’s weird doctrines support an undescribable place in our visions of life.
Canlelight – I concur with the comments previously made regarding perdition. It takes a lot more knowledge and understanding, I imagine, to actually achieve perdition. As a mom may I share a couple of things. This week she has had a life tsunami hit her. For 19 years she has imagined many things. Right now those dreams have been misplaced. That is not to place blame on you, it’s to let you know that she needs time. You have spent some time moving toward your present life, you’ve been researching topics, comtemplating possibilities and reformulating previous ideas. You’ve done it more gradually than she has. All of us have areas and times of deep disappointment and panic. She may not know it now but her disappointment has less to do with you than with the dreams she once held. For everyone of us when we are scared our reactions and responses are not are best. We say things we don’t mean, we do things that cause more pain, and more than anything we want the panic and fear to go away. No matter what is causing it. Give her time. In your previous thread you said you felt closer to Heavenly Father, use that gift for she and you. You can pray for her heart, her fears, her hopes, and the healing of the gulf between you. After you pray look for ways to keep your connection with her strong. Are there things you two used to do together, are there things she does that you could work side by side on, like cooking, gardening, car washing. You were her son before you knew what your gender feelings were. Right now the gift you can give her is that son. Don’t lie or fake things. Keep praying for help, use the resources from Ty and the Matis family. The Matis’s were tight knit, devout members, Ty’s found his own answers and so have others.
Don’t be afraid of her, the tsumani will receed and when it does you will find new roads and new love.
