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Love you Brian. That is not flippant or trite. You really did build us a home. I am deeply grateful for the past decade I have been a part of it (I guess it’s more than a decade now). You are always invited back.
Thanks again – for all of it.
Quote:My perception is limited by my vantage point, but from where I sit I don’t see leaders that want members to gain independence, I see leaders that reiterate dependence on leaders/the church. Once you do gain that independence/self-sufficiency, it becomes harder to thrive in the culture because the culture is constantly trying to steer people back towards dependency on the church.
I am more on this level. ^^^^^
Yet, I think societal-ly there is a shift coming that may over ride that. I keep watching the desperate grab to hold onto the Millenial Crowd. Because like it or not they are losing members in that age bracket faster than before. I think life will keep developing in a way that future generations won’t be as reliant on someone ahead of them or at least not in a group way. They will pick their own Influencers. No matter how much Salt Lake dreams of “guiding the flock” – the horse is already out of the gate. In a couple more generations, especially in America, church is going to look different because members are different.
The line that gets me the most is when someone says, “It was so inspiring?” – Even before FC I was bored with Stake Conference. Can I say we use “Conference” wrong.
Conference’s are very interactive. Yes there are speakers but there are also events, social hours, options. I know because I have attended 2 other denominations “Conference’s” – SDA and Methodist. And low and behold they are more like rival meetings with line dancing in the evening. There is voting, and classes for Sunday school teacher training, and family worship seminars, and history of hymns classes. – I might attend ours if we had something more robust like that.
I can stay home and get spiritual for free.
angel333 – Your name alone means a lot. Nice choice. I echo everyone here. First – I am so sorry. This year is going to be a rough Joseph Smith year for all of us. I can’t imagine what South Africa thinks of this year.
I also add that spirituality and access to the Divine has no corner market. I work with another church through their homeless ministry. Last week I heard a congregant from that church (Lutherans) berating Catholics for their failure to be proper Christians and how Martin Luther saved “the True Church”. I swear if we just flipped the names, the story would sound the same. – My point is – Every church has a mortal who started it. Whether it’s Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, Joseph Smith, Martin Luther or Peter the Apostle.
You can reach beyond all of them and find God. He loves so much and would love to be front and center in your journey right now. He may even invite you back to the religion of your upbringing. Not as a punishment but as an opportunity.
We have a guy who is going through cancer, pancreatic. A fast and testimony meeting doesn’t go by when he or his wife aren’t using the time to count their blessings, share their fears, etc. To be honest, I am enjoying their stories. I am sorry that Cancer is the reason we are getting the stories, but I appreciate them bringing real humanity to our meetings.
Maybe you are supposed to be a light in that way. I don’t know. But here’s a huge hug for you and your body.
Hang here as long as you like. We can’t bring casseroles, but we can listen and discuss.
Brother Nibbler – You are the best other side of my brain. Thank you. I always think better after reading your insights. Quote:What super righteous thing did Saul of Tarsus do to qualify for a vision of Jesus?
Or Alma the Younger for the BoM crowd.
Neither was “prepared”, “holy”, “qualified”.
Moses? He was borderline.
Joseph Coat of Many Colors was supremely arrogant.
I actually struggle with this. We set up the idea that only the Nephi’s can receive. As I go through life, the strugglers/bad guys/un-holy often have a unique direct connection that “the good guys don’t”.
I have had very deep spiritual experiences. I am also incredibly blessed. I have chosen to live a very “holy” life. But I am not sure I am closer to Christ than someone who has no religious training or to someone who cries out in their darkest hour or someone who gets a miracle for free, then from there see’s the world differently.
As I am typing this, and remembering your responsibility on the HC (the unspoken responsibility), would it be helpful to share the scripture stories of the unholy who too were made whole through Christ or carried out a God Designed Mission in their unholy state. We are a highly judgmental church. We cut people out of the flock all the time. To my way of thinking, there is nothing Christ or God centered in that method. If someone is unholy – no matter the reasons, it isn’t ours to judge, shun, bear our testimony against, and so on. Maybe this talk is a good place to gently present that idea.
No pressure.
Just my ramblings. They are free to take or leave.
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(Side note, you all can’t begin to imagine what it’s like right now here on the eve of the 200th anniversary of the FV. I try to ignore as much possible and have been skipping second hour. It might become intolerable by GC time.)I can not imagine it. I am hiding from it over here, on the other side of the country. Over there has to be nightmarish. I am lucky that my family is disconnected enough that I will miss most of it. For everyone who has to sit through the various pre-firesides, etc, my heart goes out to you.
Ironically, I don’t think Joseph would have wanted this. I know we have painted a portrait of him as being a bit of a glory seeker, charismatic, etc. But I think he wasn’t as much as our myopic view likes to do it. Did he believe in what he was doing? Yes. So did the 5 or 6 other churches that sprung up in upstate New York during the time. Did we acquire a huge swath of people in a very short time? Yes. Would this be distressing to any community? Yes. Just look at immigration now. Did Joseph want a party – likely not. He didn’t even tell the FV story for 3 years. Even after that, that wasn’t the drawing card people came from. His first written version didn’t happen until after the little Whitmer family meet up. When the BoM was finished, he tried to sell it in Canada to get money to recoup the printing costs. It became “our” book when he couldn’t unload it and sent it out with missionaries. He barely, ever quoted from it. He was a Paul-ite, if ever there was one.
He will die all over again as this proceeds.
The other irony – is why make a massive “We are Jesus” people change, then grandstand this event. Let is go. Mention it in a couple of GC talks. Show one nice honorary video. Then move on. We don’t even give Christmas or Easter this much celebration, ever.
I am sorry for the wife. This has to be humiliating and embarrassing. And any financial loss just adds to it. This means the mans choices not only affected his victims, but created more victims. I also seriously applaud the church on this. This isn’t the first case of sexual misconduct by a church member/leader. As an institution, those have not always been handled wisely. Some are still being processed and pursued. All of them are ugly and damaging no matter how you look at them. That someone took this case this direction is very hopeful. Maybe as an institution wise decisions about all cases like these will prevail.
Quote:I’m not sure most members really do know that story very well. There’s a lot revealed by a careful reading that has not necessarily been taught in past manuals. An example is how Lehi himself got to the tree because he didn’t know about the iron rod until after he was there and saw it. There could be a lot of open minded discussion on that alone.
I will give you that. I maybe should have said, “We have a oft repeated story of the Iron Rod” – and your ideas do open it up to more hopeful narratives and applications.
I would cheat and have people talk about spiritual successes in their life. Or have them talk about their own positive experiences pursuing a gospel filled life. I would even announce that we know “the iron rod” story so well, that we are looking today at how we are using the fruit to increase our connection to God. There is an additional painful side to this story – A broken family. The “Whistleblower” didn’t want this to become public knowledge. His brother or cousin who is an attorney was the real “Whistleblower” – he was the one who went public with it.
Sadly, I could spend hours on how painful and complicated this entire thing is – from the church’s choices to individuals. What I do know is that it is proof to me that when we engage in anything, that doesn’t have real love and caring behind it, we create war, strife, and sorrow. This is our world. We’ve made it what it is.
The entire exposure, awareness, etc, breaks my heart – for all of us.
Katzpur – thank you – I work with the homeless community in my area. A number of the women and families have spouses, dads, who are serving time. I can’t go into details but this piece mirrors so many of their wishful conversations. This one is hard for me. I have read plenty of analysis. As it is a hot button issue, I will reserve making too many comments. I am saddened, embarrassed, and heart broken. Even Joseph Smith’s version of tithing would not have supported this. I believe in rainy day funds. I understand that we are a world wide church but in my wildest scriptural understanding this doesn’t make sense.
I also work with the poor and needy – directly. I have been blessed by the church’s generosity – or perceived generosity. Now seeing it in this light, it hurts.
I am trying to keep space for forgiveness for whomever made the choices. I understand that charitable organizations do a lot with their funds that sometimes seems in-congruent to the idea of “charitable organizations”, but there is much here that just breaks my heart.
