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Alexia, I remind you that when my mission president told me to keep exercising patience, it was the last thing I wanted to hear. When I was so low, it seems that nobody could console me, no matter what they said. God’s time frame is not our time frame, and exercising patience when we have the least amount of it is one of the most difficult things we can do. I think we all expect that God will always watch out for our best interests. One need only read the story of Job to see the fallacy of that logic. We really need to try to have the same attitude as Job when tough times come. (Much easier said than done.) Can you develop any gift?I do not know, but I believe it is possible. The apostle Paul told us to “covet to prophesy”, and we are constantly told to seek after spiritual gifts. However, I note that Joseph was told he would not be blessed in financial matters, so I know that God doesn’t always grant what we want.
It sounds to me like you have the gift to feel the Spirit–much more than I do. That’s a cool experience about running into your old mission friends.
What do you believe the Holy Ghost is?I think there are so many answers to this question. It can go in so many different directions. I usually turn to John 14:26 as well as John 15:26.
Quote:
14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
The Holy Ghost is a comforter that teaches us, and directs us toward God. I don’t know if you’ve read my post, but I believe the Holy Ghost can be our deceased family members. There is a great book called “The Message” by Lance Richardson that addresses this topic. I think you’ll find my post interesting, and I highly recommend the book. Check it out.
http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/02/16/after-death-experience-the-message/ In response to your question, Quote:It seems in your story you were low and discouraged but did you completely lose belief? I ask because I have felt like the prodigal daughter in the past, after return from sin or omission of good,but this time it feels as if there is no Father/family to go back to (forgive me).
You’re right that I didn’t completely lose belief, but I don’t think it would have taken much more at that time to lose it. I was really starting to wonder if keeping the commandments/mission rules mattered. I remember being called as a district leader, and wondering why. I thought a district leader was supposed to show other missionaries how to baptize, and it was obvious to me I had no idea. My companion jokingly asked me if he should wear a pink tie. I responded, “I don’t care.” (I still don’t see anything wrong with it, but his previous companion would have gotten quite upset apparently.) I was feeling quite numb, and it didn’t seem to me that God cared about me. Perhaps he cared about others, but it didn’t appear that he cared about me. So, while our situations are not exactly the same, I see some strong similarities.
Alexia, you’ve been reading MM, haven’t you? I saw that post about Alma 32 too. I’m sure Andrew (the author of that post), might apply the same analysis to my story about Alma 27 and Alma 17, and say my logic was circular. Andrew is a good man, but an atheist, so just keep that in mind as you read his posts. He is naturally skeptical about spiritual things. I can be and you can be as well, and I don’t view skepticism as inherently bad either.
What is so hard for me is understanding why God seems to answer certain people and not others. I have no answer for that. Sometimes people go through all the steps of Alma 32 and don’t get the answer. I do not understand why, but I don’t deny that their experiences are just as valid as mine. The best answer that I can come up with is found in D&C 46.
Quote:11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.
12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.
13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.
…
17 And again, verily I say unto you, to some is given, by the Spirit of God, the word of wisdom.
18 To another is given the word of knowledge, that all may be taught to be wise and to have knowledge.
19 And again, to some it is given to have faith to be healed;
20 And to others it is given to have faith to heal.
21 And again, to some is given the working of miracles;
22 And to others it is given to prophesy;
Some of these sound like strange gifts–the gift to teach, the gift to believe, the gift to heal, the gift to be healed…. I encourage you to read that section. I think it is excellent.
I’ve decided that I might have the gift to teach. (It’s something I really enjoy.) But I don’t have the gift to feel the spirit strongly. I don’t have the gift to prophesy. Sometimes I want these gifts, but “To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.” I guess I have to be content with the gifts I have been given. I have heard so many stories where people “feel” they were led to knock on a door, give food to someone, or some other miraculous feeling. I can say that whenever I have felt these impressions, the people look at me like I’m crazy, so I don’t trust the feelings. It is not my gift. But I do have other gifts, and I try to use those as much as I can.
I think the coolest thing about the church is the sense of community. When a person moves into a new ward, generally, there is a well-defined community, and it is pretty easy to get involved in church activities. (I know there are exceptions–but I think the LDS church does a far better job in general that other denominations.) When I was on my mission, I was at a spiritual low. To that point in my life, I had always been the type of guy who always followed the rules. I strictly followed mission rules, yet I did not baptize. Many other missionaries didn’t follow the rules, and had a lot of success in baptizing people. I did not baptize anyone for probably the first 16 months of my mission, which was quite unusual. (My MTC companion had about a half dozen baptisms within his first 6 months.) It really bothered me, because we’ve so often been told that if we follow the commandments, we will be blessed. I can even remember a time where I fasted about 6 times in 14 days. I made goal to find someone to baptize within 25 days, and the goal passed without anyone even close. To put it bluntly, I felt let down by the Lord, and was greatly disillusioned. It was the lowest point of my mission. Another missionary pointed out the following scripture from the Book of Mormon, Alma 27:26,
Quote:Now when our hearts were depressed, and we were about to turn back, behold, the Lord comforted us, and said: Go amongst thy brethren, the Lamanites, and bear with
patiencethine afflictions, and I will give unto you success. I never knew the word “depressed” was in the scriptures. This chapter in Alma relates the success of Ammon and his brothers. While we all know how successful he was, we usually don’t realize how difficult his mission was at the beginning. It says Ammon was
depressed, and was still supposed to exercise patience. When a person is depressed, the last thing they want to do is exercise patience–we feel like we’re drowning, and need a life rope. My mission president told me to exercise patience, and I would be blessed. It was the last thing I wanted to hear. As bummed out as I was, I really felt like I had to fight to exercise faith, and it was a struggle. But just as Ammon was blessed, so was I. I have a
strongtestimony of that scripture. I also have a testimony of Alma 17:3, Quote:But this is not all; they had given themselves to much prayer, and fasting; therefore they had the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and when they taught, they taught with power and authority of God.
I don’t know about you, but the spirit of prophecy, revelation, power, and authority of God is quite appealing (especially on a mission.) While I didn’t get the success in the time frame I wanted, with patience, it came, and I was blessed immensely.
I hope that helps. It may not be exactly the story you were looking for, but it is a powerful witness to me in my life.
I think pinkpatent and heber gave you good advice. Make sure you think that the conversation could be productive, or it probably is better off not having it. If the in-laws are emotionally immature, maybe it’s better not to have the conversation. But if some good can be had, then I think it is time to address them. Pinkpatent’s advice is excellent,
Quote:Tell them of your love for her and that you would NEVER ask her to choose between yourself and them, or between yourself and the church. They are probably scared that they may “lose” their daughter. Assure them that nothing could be farther from the truth. Have your DW express to them HER feelings about the whole situation. If they are loving parents, they will not want to hurt her. They may not even know that their actions are causing her stress. They probably believe that if she presses the issue with you, that you will change your mind. Tell them that you love your wife so desparately that if that were actually the case, you would never have gone down this road in the first place. Tell them that this is between you and the Lord. Tell them that the closest thing to godliness you have found on this earth is the love of your DW.
It sounds like my posts were a little too provocative for you. While I agree with you on racism and polygamy, I guess I don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are other things I love: 3 degrees of glory, Book of Mormon, temple work, etc. So, don’t forget what attracted you first to Mormonism–I think those are probably still valid. We’re told not to put trust in the arm of flesh. When our testimony is rooted more in fallible prophets than in Christ, then I think we are trusting in the arm of flesh. So, I guess I’m trying to say that it’s ok to have problems with polygamy, or racism (the arm of flesh), but the real focus should be on Christ, and becoming more like him (charity, love, service, etc).
Alexia, It is pretty apparent to me that this messy situation has a great impact on your spirituality. Obviously there are many issues to work through, and it is not going to be a quick, painless, or easy solution. I think it is just something you need to slog through. (I wish I had a better answer.) Anyway, I think my roller coaster analogy is very appropriate. You are in a big low right now. If these people were not LDS, I suspect it still have affected your spirituality. The LDS parts stings just a little more, but not everybody LDS is ethical. Sad, but true.
You’re speaking in real vague terms, so it’s hard to give good advice. But I will say this. If forgiveness is the issue, it may be the very thing keeping you from feeling the spirit. I have had some big issues with my dad, and when I forgave him, it opened up some real spirituality in my life. When Jesus tells us that the person who doesn’t forgive is guilty of the greater sin, I believe that the reason for this is that it prevents us from feeling the spirit, rather than truly being that we are guilty of the greater sin. Lack of forgiveness stunts OUR spiritual growth. Having said that, I do know from personal experience how difficult it can be to forgive someone who has wronged us. It often can be EXTREMELY difficult. But it probably is also the reason you feel “spiritually dead” right now.
Welcome! I think it is important to God to maintain a healthy happy marriage, and I’m not 100% convinced that you’ll be separated in the next life, even if he doesn’t come to church ever again. I think he can act Christian, even if he doesn’t go to church. I’m also encouraged that he doesn’t want his name removed–I guess there’s always a chance he could come back around. I think you should encourage him as you can, but don’t hold your breath that he’ll start going to church either. I don’t know how to characterize an “average” member. I think we all are different, and it is hard to categorize what “average” is. But I don’t think you’re unique in your questioning. We all go through that. The internet is full of people who go through these same tests that you do. Even Mother Theresa wondered if God exists. If someone that pious can question, then you’re certainly not alone. However, the “average” member in the church usually doesn’t express doubts. So this forum is unique because you should find many kindred spirits here. I’m no expert in depression, but it sounds like there are some things going on in your life that may affect your spiritual ability to understand God. You mentioned something about trauma, and I suspect it is higher on your list than #5. I suspect it contributes greatly to #1, 2, and 3 (and perhaps even #4.)
My brother died in a car accident almost exactly 3 years ago. At the time I was also working graveyard, and was not getting enough sleep. When the accident happened, it caused a great deal of questioning in my life. It was probably a blessing that I taught Gospel Doctrine during this time, because it forced me (1) to study the scriptures, and (2) to go to church. While it may not have been good for the ward to hear my provocative questions (I think I was released because of my provocative questions–which were much more tame than things I write on my blog by the way), it was very therapeutic for me. (I started my blog as a direct result of being released.)
My brother’s death was a real stress on my marriage as well. I don’t know that I ever considered not believing, but I questioned quite a bit. I was really angry–I guess that was how I dealt with mourning. My wife says she thought I was depressed, and needed counseling. I didn’t get counseling, but I probably would have benefited from it. Thinking back on it, I probably should have done it. My sister did talk to a counselor, and it really helped her. At any rate, I did have a pretty good support group, and I did start a blog where I was able to vent a bit, and talk about provocative church topics. The result has been a much happier person. I don’t have the same faith I did before, but I have a more mature faith in God, which I don’t view as a bad thing. (I know that some people view me as quite a liberal, or unorthodox Mormon. One person–a TBM–even characterized some of my writing as bordering on anti-Mormon, which is funny, because this person and I used to tag-team against real anti-Mormons.)
Swimordie, Even if your marriage is in good shape, I still don’t think it’s helpful for your in-laws to be talking about you (behind your back) to your wife. It’s not fair to her or you, and certainly causes her stress. So maybe it is an exaggeration to say it is interfering with your marriage, but I think it’s still an appropriate thing to say to her parents. Certainly their comments are not helpful to your situation, which is not an exaggeration at all. I view my spirituality as much of a roller coaster–full of highs and lows. It sounds like you’re in a low right now. I think it’s important to just keep fighting through these lulls (and sometimes it feels very much like a fight.) It seems to me that I often get back to the top without realizing it. Yes, if they’re only talking to your wife, I think you need to broach the subject with them. I don’t always say the most tactful things, but let me make an attempt. Perhaps you can tone this down if it is too confrontational. You could say something like, “I know you’ve been talking to my wife about my leaving the church. I would prefer you direct those questions to me, because you’re putting her in a difficult situation that she does not deserve. I don’t know if you’re trying to break up our marriage or not, but by talking only to her about my situation, you’re not helping our marriage. We all know how stressful marriage can be, and I would like to talk with you calmly, openly, and with respect. Please help me strengthen my marriage, my faith in God, and my relationship with you.”
What do you think? (Maybe you could even write a letter so you can be sure you say things as nicely and calmly as possible. Perhaps your wife could help edit the letter?)
