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Would they rather lose an active, believing family over policy and tradition?
Unfortunately, this seems to be true, though I am sure some of the leadership doesn’t see it this way. They seem to see it as a lack of loyalty to the church and their divine leadership. So many good changes are happening in church policy and administration. Change is hard for some people, but I can hope that it continues.
Quote:All I can say is to do what you feel is best for you and your relationship with God. I believe firmly that, if there is a God, they will understand and accept your decision. No guilt; take care of yourselves; find ways to serve others: be an example of what others should have been with you.
Thanks Curt, this is great. I am heartbroken at the thought of stepping away from the church, but I can keep reminding myself I don’t have to step away from God too. Right now my relationship with God is better without the church, when I am there and hurt it is difficult to separate the two.
Quote:I think there might be some underlying resentment from both wards in your situation. Your origin ward might feel miligned and rejected. Your new ward may feel unfairly burdened by your presence.
Yes I do see this happening. We were in the last ward for 10 years we had leadership callings in the past. Some people don’t know why we left. We have stayed pretty quiet about the specifics, but there are a lot of people that know because they watched it happen. At the end unknown to me at the time, there were lots of people that went to the leadership to say what was happening was not ok. That just made the bishop double-down harder.
We were worried about not pulling our weight in the adopted ward, we tried very hard when we got there to help anywhere we could, clean the building, substitute, bring meals, put away chairs, bring refreshments to things, clean up after activities. The members were so great at the beginning, we are not the only family to come there from the other ward. They welcomed us and included our family in really everything. Then the leadership asked us to stop and we had to tell everyone asking us no. We serve in the church a lot, it is just not where the ward members can see very often. The stake and regional leadership encouraged us to serve in other places since we couldn’t in the wards.
Fading into inactivity is exactly what I want to do, I love my calling but it will end in a few months. DH is not on board with that, I want him to have a ward he can belong to.
The kids and I have joined other community groups and organizations over the last few years as church has become a painful and lonely place, DH has not joined us. The church is relatively small here, the only reason there are any ward options is because we are close to a large city.
Quote:Hopefully there’s a third ward you can window shop?
This could be the best option. There are two other wards that are close enough, those areas are just even more expensive, or have really rough schools. When we started attending this ward two years ago it was with the intention we would move there.
I would say this is one of those stories where some family gives up everything to stay active, and everything is magically perfect, but I don’t believe most of the stories anymore. Thank you for the kindness and encouragement.
Update: The bishop asked to talk to us on Sunday, as he had gotten several phone calls from people about this, which is interesting as I didn’t talk to very many people. He explained his need and assignment to follow the rules in the hand book. I don’t think any rules would be broken by letting her sing. He said too many different things like “I need to protect the ordinance of the sacrament” and “I always feel the spirit when she sings” “That song is a great Christmas Song”. He expressed surprise that we were hurt, even though I have talked with him about the other stuff before. He got upset when I said he had not let her sing before and told me it never happened. That at least made my husband upset. He offered for her to sing at the Ward Christmas Party. She was asked to do an instrumental thing for that earlier with some other youth and she turned it down as the Ward Christmas party is more like a 2 hour talent show and so competitive. It is usually a pretty awful time with a bunch of controlling stressed out people yelling at you to stop talking and listen while their 10 year old piano students play Christmas carols on the piano and your children beg to go home. Complaining aside she doesn’t think she would be able to get through the song now. Another member of the ward invited her to sing with a group of youth singing at the Ward Christmas party, but she said the kids didn’t want her before (they were pretty vocal about it in seminary), so why would they want her now. The bishop “committed” my husband to meet with him and try and work it out, whatever that means. He didn’t ask me and I stopped him when he tried to ask DD as he said that to her more than a year ago when she went to him about the bullying and he never followed up, or even noticed when she stopped coming. I pointed that out and he said he was so overwhelmed he just couldn’t handle everything and there were so many much more important things he needed to spend his time on. I felt really bad for him.
I agree he is overwhelmed, our whole ward is. There are too many rules, too many expectations, too many “perfect” programs, too much micro-managing and controlling of everything, and no time left for either the gospel or the people. I really believe the Bishop is a good person that is really trying his best, as are most of the other people in our ward(there are a few that are not good people). I don’t want to go and complain, and say things aren’t working anymore, it doesn’t change anything, it hurts the people that get blamed, and doesn’t make me feel better. I can’t change or fix it, I have been trying so hard for the last couple of years: To stay, to excuse the awful behavior, to tell myself this is what God wants to happen, that I need to learn something, making excuses to my children, finding alternatives to the YW program, teaching lessons at home to combat all the judgmental and false doctrine taught in the youth and primary programs, trying to serve more, talking with leaders, pleading with God. All I want to do now is give up. Where is the point where staying hurts more than leaving? It is time to mourn, let go, and move on. That seems to be the only thing I can do with church anymore.
I love the idea that I can put new tools in the toolbox. Another church’s youth group is a great idea, if I can get her to go. She is taught that sitting at lunch with a non-member is a slippery slope, so going to another church’s activity might take some getting used to. The kids and I could attend another ward, DH says he is staying as attending another ward is unrighteous and people will talk badly about us. I have talked to a few other people that I know are having problems here, they said the SP is unlikely to transfer our records. We have been discussing moving for several years as well, but DH is very much against it for school and financial reasons. This is the first time he has gone with me to talk to anyone at church about things not going well, so maybe there is a little hope there, and sorry to be so depressing.
Thank you so much for the responses it is so nice to hear some encouraging words. Roy and Joni, it is good to know that my family is not the only one
Quote:nibbler
How do you think your BP would react if you talked to him about your feelings, some of the things you shared in your post? About the time your DD has spent practicing?
I have thought about this a lot. The Bishop still has not responded to me, but it has only been a day and 1/2. I called the Music chair who is the one that told me DD couldn’t sing and asked more about what happened and why I am only hearing she can’t do it now. She said the objection was raised now because the counselor in charge didn’t even know who had been asked or that anything had been planned. Though I mentioned it to the Bishop that she was singing a while ago. She said it was not about DD just the song. I really do not believe that at all, but I am trying to go with it.
She said they played a you tube video of the song and thought it too “contemporary” which after talking to her means too rock. Though when I pressed she did say she has no idea what arrangement DD is singing. She also seemed to have no idea that anything has happened before or know that DD is not participating in the youth program.
When I tried to tell her very briefly why DD was hurt last time she really objected and said she didn’t want to know, even though she was involved in it. She told me she had no idea anything had happened she just got told the schedule changed. I pressed and said maybe if she had known things would have been handled differently. She did say she should have just come and talked to me about it and gotten more information.
Here is a little rant
How can we as a church “Family” (I really hate that term) expect to know how to best serve and minister to each other when we refuse to communicate? How does sticking our heads in the sand help us understand what each other need. This would have never happened if someone would have TALKED to me weeks ago. I am not just talking about this situation. I have tried so many times to discuss things with people. I get no where. All I seem to hear from the priesthood leadership of the ward is “I am inspired”.
❗ I am told in lessons and by the ward leadership don’t ask questions don’t disagree just obey. Why can’t we have a discussion. I don’t see myself as unreasonable, but I don’t want to hear the equivalent of because I said so. I can’t be ok with that anymore. How does that move anyone forward, it just causes resentment.So, I have found someone to play the piano for her last minute and sent a text to the member of the Bishopric that the Music chair told me is in charge and asked if he would come and listen to the song at Mutual tonight. I will try to tell him, and let DD tell him how hurt she is by this, and that it is really not about the song. It is about her not feeling wanted over and over again. She turned down other opportunities to sing so she could spend the time on this song for our ward. If he says no then that is that, I have no control over what he decides. I guess I would have tried, and maybe that will help teach DD that she is worthy of someone at least trying.
Quote:So maybe things are changing and there is a small pack of girls running around Provo wearing those “TEAM EMMA” shirts.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Sorry it took so long to get back, life happens. First of all I sent out an email on Saturday to the RS with a link to the original just said it was more in depth and helped me understand the lesson better. A couple of people emailed me back and said they loved it. The email group admin then sent out that we were going to use a different lesson with a new link, but the teacher stuck with the first, so everyone was confused.
The lesson started really hostile, I don’t think it was meant to be it just felt that way to me. Everyone was sharing their thoughts about how the church made them feel empowered including that if you did not feel that way your character and testimony was lacking. I responded that I loved all the testimonies that people had, but what if you did not feel that way, how did all of you gain such beautiful thoughts about being a woman in the church. After a quiet tense moment people started to talk, some used parts of the original presentation without saying where it came from.
That really changed the tone of the lesson, one sister even shared a time when she had been hurt by a priesthood member and other women helped her through it against the leader’s wishes. She talked about how that was empowering that a woman could follow the spirit and not just the church leaders
😮 There were several people that were not happy with the turn of the lesson and tried to get back to how we should be happy with what we have and stop wanting more, but it did not stick. One sister brought up that there was a revelation that in the last days the greatest opposition to the truth would come from within the church while staring at me. I nodded and said I had heard that and I could see it happening.
:lolno: It was really good. Not something that ever happens in my RS where the favorite topic is exact obedience and how the outside world is evil.
I don’t usually say anything, but I did not have to say very much, I guess there were a few other people that felt the same. I was so GREAT to hear from everyone here and discuss this ahead of time. Without all of the great ideas and support here I would have gone into the lesson just as mad as when I first read it. And that has not worked well in the past.
Quote:If you do this, we’ll let you drop the “Chicken” part of your moniker and you’ll just be “Mrs Super” to us!
:lolno: :thumbup: Quote:If you do this, we’ll let you drop the “Chicken” part of your moniker and you’ll just be “Mrs Super” to us!
:lolno: Funny!!
Taking the original sounds like a great idea!! If nothing else it should make things more interesting!
Quote:It has that pre-chewed quality to it – rhetorical question asked and answered. That’s what I dislike about so many lessons, the essays, all of correlated materials lately: let us tell you what you think. In any discussion there should be room for positives, negatives and unknowns.
This says it exactly. The Ensign article says women at church are empowered intellectually. I guess that could be the author’s experience, but it is not at all mine.
And then all the great stuff that was left out Quote:I think in our practice we also need more imagination. This is not a very powerful example, but I think that young women may be in danger of learning passive helplessness on their road to adult membership and the temple. Young men are setting up chairs and gathering palm fronds and shoveling walks, and home teaching. And I don’t know that we’ve been as imaginative as we ought to be. To think about what are the parallel paths that young women walk so that they are prepared for their adult roles. I also think we need better and more visible role models of men and women working together with their strong strengths that they each bring. I think we need to be more visible about that, not only in our congregations and in our families, but to the world. I think we are so interesting with this moderate doctrine of this way that men and women bring complimentary powers towards solving a solution. And both halves are needed. We ought to be more articulate and more visible about that.
Her story of being listened to in a council meeting that was mostly made up of men and how that needs to happen more in the church
Her discussing how great the world could be for women if there were no more whoredoms.
I really miss reality in our meetings – Sigh
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EnsignI believe that misunderstandings regarding women’s roles arise when there is a disconnect between the doctrine and the practice of the doctrine. However, through continuing revelation from God to His prophets and to us through the Holy Ghost, we can continue to recognize and eliminate most misunderstandings that surface.
Quote:Original
I have to be candid that there are lots of people who would not agree that this is a church for women. And I think that the reason they feel that way is because of a disconnect that comes between our doctrine and sometimes the way that we practice our doctrine. And there has been a lot of discussion and a lot of disagreement and people have had painful experiences. There is just stuff that is plain wrong. And there are consequences, too. It would be absurd for me to stand up here and say that our political and our traditional and our cultural practices always live up to our doctrine. I’m not even sure that we fully grasp our doctrine. And to be honest, in my opinion, we can improve in many, many ways. We should and I think we will.
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EnsignI may also have the opportunity in this life to be a wife—if not in this life, then certainly in the next. This role is who I am in relation to a chosen equal partner, a husband. Though we are not the same—since nobody has the combination of gifts and traits that I have or that he has—we use our complementary attributes to try to become one. The word sealing is an excellent description of the eternal unifying potential of a marriage created by priesthood authority in a temple.
Quote:Original
I do not think “sealing” is an idly chosen word. And it is asking us to become unified in the same way that we are unified in this way. And so it takes probably a lifetime and beyond to create this unified, divine pair. But it is a transition from self-interest, and worried about me, to worrying about the unit. And basically we are saying in our sealed, divine unit – “I trust you and I have your best interests at heart, and I will be your advocate, I will look out for you and I will look for your greatest good.” And probably everybody in this room thinks that that is a very long and a probably interesting journey. But when you are sealed by authority, that divine pair has not only the ability but the authorized right to be creators. And so they are authorized to bring and nurture life. And that’s an incredibly powerful position. It’s a divine position that we’re here in on the earth.
Quote:I just know most people here are bruised and scarred in some way, and I wanted to tell each of you how much I admire you.
This is why everyone here is so valuable to me as I continue to show up with the hope that it will get easier with time, because it isn’t easy for you either.
Thank you for posting this Ray.
I picked this out of your previous statements. Quote:In fact, I believe at this point in our lives she is the purer of the two of us. She really is a Saint in every sense of the word.
It could be that you are also mourning the idea that your wife is this perfect person. The pedestal you put her on has been shaken and you are seeing her in a different way. When nothing has really changed about her present except your idea of who she was is the past. No one is perfect not her and not you, though the sudden realization of that I’m sure is really hard.
Mourn for a short while, then you will have to find a way to move on. If you can’t move past it you risk really destroying what sounds like a great relationship with her. I am sure you don’t want to hurt her, or make her feel less than worthy of you, your love, and God’s love but if you let it continue to affect you that is what will happen. She will also not want to talk to you about other things in her life that may not be as perfect as you want her to be.
I am so sorry to hear the heartache you are having from this situation. It is great that you are trying to find help and work through it, keep at it.
Just a few things from someone who has experienced some of your wife’s point of view.
I am rather late to the discussion, but I am very annoyed at this sort of thing. I have seen this happen before and the young man was so convinced by a priesthood holder that his blessing would heal him, that it was really hard for him and his family when it did not happen. Quote:“The use of medical science is not at odds with our prayers of faith and our reliance on priesthood blessings.”
“From all of this we learn that even the servants of the Lord, exercising His divine power in a circumstance where there is sufficient faith to be healed, cannot give a priesthood blessing that will cause a person to be healed if that healing is
not the will of the Lord.”
Every elder who gives a blessing is subject to influence by what he desires for the person afflicted. Each of these and other mortal imperfections can influence the words we speak.
Fortunately, the words spoken in a healing blessing are not essential to its healing effect. If faith is sufficient and if the Lord wills it, the afflicted person will be healed or blessed whether the officiator speaks those words or not. Conversely, if the officiator yields to personal desire or inexperience and gives commands or words of blessing in excess of what the Lord chooses to bestow according to the faith of the individual, those words will not be fulfilled.
-Elder Oaks
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/04/healing-the-sick?lang=eng
People need to read the whole text of this talk, not just the parts they like!
I hope the best for your son and I really do hope he has been healed, but don’t give up with the doctors and don’t allow your family or your son to think they are not valued by the Lord if his back continues to cause problems in his life.
