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Unfortunately, I really cannot see you having success at this, much less IN church. The expressions of the leaders is that our official meetings need to be “faith promoting” and that, as we know in this forum means to stick to what the church has released as it correlated material. I think many members are not ready for nuanced discussion of the gospel and people feel threatened by it, which saddens me personally. I wonder if over the decades as the younger crowd grows up, that the need for such a class won’t grow – I think it will. Just my two cents.
I don’t think anything will change at this point – BSA is still allowing participating organizations to determine for themselves what the makeup of their leadership will be. I believe any significant change is still years away as there is a contingent in the church that believes scouting is a wonderful thing (that has been the experience of many and I can’t discount it). Personally, growing up, I loved Cub Scouts and my mom was a den mother at one point during my tenure in that organization. Once I reached Boy Scouts, I just sort of lost interest. I mean, I liked some of the camps (certainly not all of them), but it was not my bag. I was more interested in academics and science. I was learning to play guitar and I loved music. My parents didn’t want to push me for getting an Eagle, but rather let me have the latitude to pursue my own interests and to that I am grateful. As a result, Getting the First Class rank, mainly through the work of my leaders, was about as far as I got. I have not missed going further in Scouts in the least and it has not affected my ability to get a job, even at the young and inexperienced phase of my life.
It would not hurt my feelings any if the Church abandoned scouting and did their own thing. A lot of money is spent in that area and I think some of the savings could be used to make the girls programs more equitable to the boys.
My tipping point was dishonesty and betrayal from the institution I had come to fully trust. I had trouble with historicity and polygamy, but more in the context of the church trying so hard to hide the truth from me for so long. I really feel duped sometimes and it still stings. It has made me know that they don’t have all the answers and that i need to follow my own heart, so there was one blessing that came out of it. Great article – I find I like much of what he writes. Only wishing now I would have been in his lesson so I could say I have a kindred spirit in my ward 😮 Hi Sue, Welcome. Sounds like you are well into the realm of knowing that the church, like any other organization, is quirky and imperfect (I hope I don’t get struck by light for saying that). I think the good things you see (family bonds, good will, etc.) are the gospel-centric things and the gospel to me is different than the church.
I stay because I very much like the community and the chance to serve. I also have had spiritual experiences that keep me connected to it and it honestly helps me want to live a more Christlike life. That’s not to say there are some classes/lessons I attend where I am totally in disagreement with what is taught, but whatever.
I make it work on my own terms as Cadence suggests and am hopeful you are able to do the same. A big part of doing that relies on losing the guilt, which I realize is extremely hard for some to do (not me). Also, I’m sure the individual ward culture you are in will have a lot to do with being able to pull that approach off and have people surrounding you there who love and support instead of judge.
I wish you well on whatever decision you choose. This forum is a pretty good sounding board to provide you some input on that decision.
Hi Cordelia_Cox, Welcome to the StayLDS forum and I am glad you you reached a point to feel comfortable enough to introduce yourself. I can say nothing but good about the folks who post here – it’s a positive, thoughtful place and they helped me out immensely as I was going through the anger I personally felt as I was learning the truth about the whitewashed history the church championed and taught. I’m in my 50s and all of this has been within the last few years for me too – I share your feelings and view that the Church has a truth crisis. I am glad to see that changing though, through the release of the essays (although it can be effectively argued that comments in those still suffer from a truth crisis). I am a bit disappointed that it has taken the power of Google and the information age to encourage more honesty from the church, but at the same time, I welcome the small steps they are taking – I cannot imagine how difficult it is to steer an organization so large and diverse.
Hang in there – this is a tough time. I have personally noticed that individuals who think in black and white when it comes to church have a much more difficult and emotionally turbulent time with learning the issues than someone who thinks in grays like I do. As you have defined yourself as one of the black and white thinkers and from reading your comments it seems very exhausting for you now. Just know that there are people in this forum who care about you and what you are going through.
Welcome!
Hi Slowlylosingit, Welcome to the forum and you have come to the right place to find support as work through things that are impacting your faith. As is typical, I’m kind of late chiming in here and you have already gotten the meat of the advice from many of the crew that call this forum a second home. The biggie for me was simply taking it slow and looking at things from a lot of angles. Also, some people rush right out and post on Facebook and talk to their bishop – not a good idea in my opinion. Play it close to the vest and use this forum for your thoughts. Also, it sounds like there are a few close to you to talk to who have been through this – definitely a plus to have that resource and hopefully you can use it to your advantage.
I am sorry you are having so much anguish with all of this right now – unquestionably, that is difficult to deal with. Hope you can find comfort as time presses forward and you can sort it out for you.
Know that the CES letter is probably one of the heavier cast iron anvils that fall out of the sky – I know it was for me the first time I read it. But the more I thought about it and read other things, the more it became something that was just picking at everything about the church (I also listened to the interview with Jeremy Runnells that John Dehlin did with him on MormonStories and felt the same way). That is not to say at any level that the letter does not make valid points – it does. It was just a bit heavy for me when I could see so many people at church doing nice things for others. It kind of made me see that not everything the church does is bad.
I have now landed in a place where I enjoy church and can separate the gospel from the church. I don’t agree with everything that is said, obviously, but I still love the folks that are there and hopefully if I am commenting from the heart in classes and such, I am helping others broaden their views. I think the black and white position the church is known for and supports (i.e. it’s all true or it’s the biggest sham ever) is damaging.
Good luck and God bless!
Welcome to the forum! I remember how p**d I was reading the CES letter – that’s a tough one. For me personally though, it seemed like after you got into, it picked at every little thing it could find. I felt similar anger at the coverups that have taken place to keep the church’s whitewashed history in place for the membership.
One thing that helped me (aside from the encouragement I received from others on this forum to take it slow) was hearing Richard Bushman’s “testimony” of the church on Mormon Stories. If you don’t know, he is the author of Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling and a patriarch. He basically stated that he believes in the “goodness” of the church and I think that is where I am at too. I, like DJ, separate the gospel (i.e. love your neighbor, treat others kindly) from the church and that has helped immensely.
Keep in mind that you don’t have to come out in some big way – that will freak out everyone dear in your life. I think since we are the “testimony” church, sometimes when we lose our traditional testimony we feel like we need to bear testimony of our loss of testimony (wow, that’s a sentence that Nibbler could write
🙂 ) I don’t think that is necessary. I do think that through study, you can point things out to others in a respectful way to encourage them to see where you are coming from (the church’s own essays, journals of respected church leaders, etc.). I try doing this in HP lessons from time to time.Use this group to bounce ideas off of and to vent – it is a great support.
Whiterapids, Looks like you have gotten some good advice here. The biggie for me is just take it sloooow and do plenty of thinking/pondering. I also would recommend private messaging my sister, who is also part of this group (Awakening). She WAS the spouse and may be able add to the perspective that mom3 has offered in her comments.
Good luck to you — it’s a hard place to be.
Definitely do it – it’s part of our LDS culture and is a great symbol of simply making a decision to follow in Christ’s footsteps. All bishops who truly care want fathers to fill that role. I am Awakening’s brother and went to the baptism for her twins – it was very nice and lacked the fear and orthodoxy that I have seen at times in other baptisms. Even though the member of the bishopric gave the “just remember, it’s all true” talk at the end, to me, that wasn’t even that big of a deal. The other talks and even the confirmation blessings that were given were more about being Christlike in our actions. Besides, the boys were so active that day, I can’t think they heard much of that talk.
It was nice to have the separate baptism, and having served in a bishopric five years ago, I know that we would have done what we could to accommodate a baptism the way a family wanted/needed it.
Hi Mrs. SuperChicken, Sorry, but when I read about your experience with this lesson, I seriously was laughing out loud. No wonder you entitled the post “utterly ridiculous”. In a morbid fascination kind of way, I wish I would have been there to experience it right with you! Then we could have just made quiet comments and laughed under our breath at the audacity of it all
😯 .Seriously though, I have found that when I hear crazy teachings come out of peoples’ mouths I just try to understand that they are coming from their own viewpoints. Sometimes I have used the old phrase we have heard mention people use here in lessons they also have a hard time with. The respectful phrase of “Well, that hasn’t been my experience. What I have seen is
”. I’m a little late at this, but welcome. Your avatar looks like me when I found out about all the historical stuff 😆 Hi Jeff, I’m sorry to hear of your struggles at present, but know you are among a group of friends who can truly empathize with you and the shock that is felt as the curtain is drawn back and new truths are revealed. It was extremely difficult for me to find this out in full force in my 50s and initially I felt extremely betrayed by my church. Fortunately, people like DJ and others gave the advice to go slow while figuring things out. So, that would be my advice here – take it slow and one day at a time.
I’m like your wife in that the polygamy thing was a very tough issue for me (I suppose it still it, but has changed into a part of our history I have become fascinated with). Maybe the church essays about that might give you and your wife some common ground to start with?? Not sure if she would be ready for this, but the “Year of Polygamy” Feminist Mormon Housewives podcasts are an excellent source of historical information about it and the lady who does them does a great job of sticking to the facts as they have been uncovered by historians and presented in the journals of early members.
My prayers are with you as you navigate through this challenging time.
Hi Orual, This is a great place for you to get some support and it has helped many of us. Thanks for sharing your story and know that you are among friends. I hope you can find a good therapist who can help – I know that when my youngest daughter was struggling and needed someone to talk to in her junior high years (she’s in college now), we opted for someone who was outside the LDS counseling services just to assure she would get a balanced view of things.
I just finished reading Chieko Okazaki’s interview in Dialogue she did about nine years ago. It’s a great read IMO because it is a concrete example of someone navigating the muddled waters of Mormonism and making it work. She says that she was in the Church to follow Jesus and she had in incredible level of patience navigating the system and love for those around her. One of my favorite General Authorities and a person I can ponder on when I have my own bad days.
Anyway, welcome to the group.
