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Looking at your analogy, I really think that there are a lot of Sams in the church – people that just want to help out where they can and try to lead a Christlike life. Thankfully they don’t take center stage like the Nephis do — we still have too many of them 🙂 .Hi Mom3, I think maybe the main reason why we people in this forum might have a difficult time with them is that we have pretty much lost the “tow the line and obey no matter” mentality that we associate with that group. We just need to realize that a) many of us were there once (I was) and b) they are just doing what they think is best for them and their families. I am not familiar with all the spiritual experiences they have had and the like, but somehow, the angle they take speaks to them and provides comfort.
I just want to be their friends and help where I can even though we might disagree. It’s amuses me sometimes when I do disagree with them in HPG lessons and they worry that they offended me. Some have even come up to me afterward to make sure I’m all right.
When my youngest was little, she had all out open conversations with God in her prayers. One time my wife and I almost busted up laughing when she told God “I’m a rabbit”. Fun times!
LookingHard, I have the same challenge with thinking quickly on my feet. Sometimes I will just listen to the lesson we are to have while running on the treadmill and make some mental notes about it. I have gone as far as put some quotes from General Authorities in the tablet that talk about the subject that might offer opposing views from the narrative in the lesson. Of course, I don’t have it there to bash with anyone, but to possibly offer another view similar to the approaches that Ray pointed out. My problem is that my memory just is not as good is it once was! Amen — great way of putting it Heber13 and an approach to people that is certainly worthy of striving for. I got to agree with journeygirl on this one – blech :sick: . But on the positive side, they are finally publishing something about it, though it still does not honestly discuss it. To me, the overall tone of the essays seems to be aimed at TBMs who are beginning to be exposed to polygamy by Google and folks like us as a means for them to say “See, yeah, polygamy happened and it was all guided by God”. I guess I’m not sure the Church could have gone any further discussing it with the array of membership we have and the hand they have been dealt with this issue. Still, I hope they disclose more on their own as more people find out about polygamy through reputable sources on the Internet.Any in depth study of “the principle” can’t help but make one see what a mess it was. I’ll admit that this is one of my hot buttons. But seriously, the blessings promised the Kimballs if their fourteen year old daughter married Joseph?! As I recall, the angel with the drawn sword was to get Zina (already married to Henry) to marry Joseph. That seems like complete manipulation to me and is uncharacteristic of the God who I personally have come to know.
This is a very hard issue for me because of my personal experience at a fairly young age. I lost my first wife when she was only 23. She had a terminal disease and as we discussed what I would do after she died, this painful topic came up in our conversations. For a long time, she did not want me to get married in the temple after she died, but within the last few weeks of her life, she gave her permission. She wanted me to be happy in the rest of my life and she knew that in our LDS lifestyle, that any “good Mormon girl” that could be a future wife to me would require a temple marriage. I was deeply touched that she would see my anguish and give that type of permission when she struggled with it too. If that isn’t an act of true love, I don’t know what is. I am approaching my 25th anniversary with my second wife who I married in the temple – a wonderful woman who amazes me daily.
That is not the end of the story with what was going on at the time I was soon to be losing my first wife – there is more to it that is just, well, it confirms what a mess polygamy is to me. During the time she was in and out of the hospital, she had a very kind nurse that we got close to. This happened over the course of a few years. The nurse was not much older than us and LDS . She had lost her husband who she married in the temple. In the LDS church, we all know that temple ceremonies only allow men to marry multiple times and not women. She was remarried to another LDS man outside the temple of course and I know it was difficult for her to think about it. Would the kids she planned to have be hers in the eternities?? What a hard thing to ponder!
I do not believe polygamy is inspired or anything of the like in the 19th century or now. There is simply too much suffering associated with it to comprehend. I hope the church continues to morph on this topic and reaches a point when it can truly provide some comfort to those in pain from it. The essays are a good first step.
It sounds like you are talking about one of the men who teaches monthly in my HPG. He is an institute teacher and very committed to walking the line. The interesting thing is that he has had students come up to him with the questionable stuff and it doesn’t sound like he backs down with them. I have disagreed with him “nicely” in class a time or two and he has thought he offended me before, but I’m like a duck and just let what TBM’s think are offenses to me roll of my back. Unfortunately, you won’t get a person like that to convert or even understand your way of thinking any more than you will want to convert to theirs. Like others have said, sometimes it is better just not to engage with the hard core folks – especially those who are old school and have decades of indoctrination that ANYTHING said or taught that sheds unfavorable light on the church is severely anti-Mormon.
What do I do… a lot of times, I just don’t bother to engage/argue. It’s just not worth it. But I will limit conversations that head toward the black and white mentality. Instead, I try to focus on areas where I have some common ground with the hard core folks. This usually tends toward the idea of “What would Christ do?”. At least from what I have seen, there simply cannot be much argument against the fact that he ministered to all.
Not sure if any of this helps. Hopefully you can endure the living arrangement as you finish your student teaching. It’s good to know that there will soon be another teacher in society with an open mind
:thumbup: Hi SBR, I think you are a visionary and a little ahead of your time on this one. I really don’t think leadership overall is ready for such a bold approach, especially given that the church is highly authoritarian still and likes to control things rather tightly. This was hammered home to me once again just this summer when I watched this program (
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/meet-the-mormons/episode-guide The Church also has a history of treating those who question and make it public poorly – from blaming them, to threatening them with disfellowship, to excommunicating them. Bottom line – I don’t think the Church is ready for such a gathering, even if I think it is a good idea. I also think those with doubts would fear attending because of the retaliation that might take place.
You mentioned that your leadership is seeing an increase of people coming in to bishops and the stake president with questions. I feel encouraged that is happening in your area because in most instances, the squeaky wheel gets the grease and maybe this issue will get some more attention in a way the Church can be comfortable with now.
I picture “help for those with doubts” as being a little more confidential. I think that if you built up a pool of faithful doubters like you and others that bishops and the stake president can refer people to in confidence, that might fly with the leaders and you might still be able to keep your TR
My two cents. Good luck and God bless.
Getting the Deseret Book catalog within the last week and seeing the book “The Crucible of Doubt” advertised on the first page. A book such as this would never be carried by the Church’s bookstore five years ago. Baby steps… Hi Bill, I have thought of you as a kindred spirit and am truly amazed at all you do. I’m glad to hear that you are able to take control and tell people you need to limit your involvement for now. Like DJ said, burnout is real – you do need to take care of yourself and be there for your family.
Too often in the church we burden people down with callings and then pile on guilt when they don’t magnify them the way we think they should. It’s wrong to do, but unfortunately part of the LDS culture.
Hang in there and know we are behind you.
Welcome and glad you found us. I think you will find this forum helpful for where you are at now. It certainly has provided me a community I feel safe in expressing my thoughts and doubts.
Sorry you are having it rough Shawn, but know that many of us are thinking of you. Funny you should mention that quote in the Friend from some years ago. I, too, came across that and was pretty much disgusted. I was reading Todd Compton’s “In Sacred Loneliness” book at the time and was just curious what the church had ever said about Henry Jacobs. The result is that I have taken a bit of a reprieve for now on reading about polygamy. I’ll pick that book up at a later date. Hang in there — maybe it’s time to take a step back and just focus on Jesus and not so much “the Church”. I know changing my focus like that at times helps. Good luck and God bless.
