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It’s next to impossible at your age in our culture to find a job that doesn’t require work on Sunday at some point. That said, my two cents would be to take it and do what you can to attend church whenever possible. Just don’t use your job as a perpetual excuse to quit going to church entirely. If you are like me in the least, I need the contact with the other members to help my own spiritual strength. Your folks also have to see that you are doing what you can support yourself and become independent, which is a big plus.
I don’t think they have been honest, but then again, my definition of “honesty” is broader than SGoodman’s. I include “knowingly deceive” as part of my definition. By encouraging members to read and use “church approved” materials for lessons, talks, teachings, the church is, in my opinion not being completely honest and I will admit that it does bother me to this day. My strategy for coping with it personally is to try focusing on the good that the church does both for me and others. Within my definition, no person or organization is completely honest. We all lie to either protect ourselves or others we love in some way, whether it is telling a 3 year old the drawing he made and showed you is beautiful to complimenting your grandma for the dinner she cooked when you could barely choke it down. I believe it is similar for the church – there is probably a purpose to, and I’ll use Ray’s term, “creative honesty”. I would imagine that it has to do with how all the correlation came about and was likely needed by the church at the time. I’ll admit that I have not read as much on that topic at present, but would like to in the future.
Hi Willb1993 – a late welcome to this forum from me. Sounds like you are getting some good advice from people here and I echo the views of those who have expressed themselves here. I would also add a few thoughts of my own as I was the quiet one in high school too and awkward in social settings (I still struggle with that one too and I am decades older than you). What I would add, based on my experience –
1. Blessings don’t fall out of the sky, like most leaders in the church will tell you. That simply hasn’t happened for me and I highly doubt it happens for others. They come from being proactive, taking some risks and doing some things that might make you feel uncomfortable all while doing your best to stay positive along the way.
When I was about your age, one of the risks I took that paid off in self esteem was joining an all mens baseball team in my stake. I’ve always struggled with sports but I decided to do it and stick to it. I played in the outfield and got hit in the same part of my head close to my eye twice (stitches both times). I slid into second the”wrong” way, and got scratched all up around my knee. But I finished the season and people got to know me. It was great, but sure hard to go back after the second round of stitches!
2. Realize that time passes much more slowly as a 20, but that it will go by anyway. As far as getting the GPA up, going to the community college over the next year is not that long. Just buckle down and give it your all. Seek help and put in the extra time on the classes you struggle with and you will look back and see the changes you yourself did – it will be a real confidence builder. But I warn you that it takes tremendous work.
3. Work on finding what YOU want. After I went on a mission, I was easily talked into taking some classes because it was something my brother-in-law was doing. Long story short – I ended up dropping the classes in the middle of the quarter. It just was not me and I was sad and frustrated at that point.
Hang in there. Counseling might help as well, but personally I would seek a counselor who respects the role of religion, but is not LDS. My daughter visited somebody like this in junior high and it really helped. It was a bonus to get a broader view from a non-LDS professional and she swears it helped her. My two cents… Good luck!
Hi Ray, That will probably be a bit of a tough topic given the age ranges of everyone. I would agree with nibbler on covering the blogging though — you might lose some people there if you cover that topic in detail. It takes quite a bit of time and effort to blog successfully.
Were I to do such a lesson, I would probably focus more on using social media to connect with people you would not normally reach. FB has been nice since I have been able to connect with people I knew on my mission — it’s been great! I would also mention how it can be used to support people in their struggles. Like it or not, some people kind of spill their guts out there and sometimes it’s nice to respond with a personal message or maybe even… a phone call or personal visit.
I personally dislike how when commenting on things in a blog or news story or whatever that some people abuse their anonymity by being jerks about what they say (personal attacks, insensitivity, etc.), so a discussion about that would be good.
Good luck!!
Wow (not a good wow, btw). I found myself vocally disagreeing as I listened to a this on the commute home last evening. It’s a stark reminder of how I got to the point I am in the first place. I agree that both John Dehlin and Kate Kelly pushed the envelope in the church’s eyes and it probably had to take some kind of action for the sake of the organization and the “99 members”. But how did it get to that point? People who question quietly are often ignored or brushed off. It’s no wonder why the “agitation” increases.
I pretty much agree with what bridget_night said. The church is authoritarian and it discourages communication that offers differing viewpoints (at least along the Corridor where I live).
Earlier this year, I was in one of those stake training sessions and someone asked what to do if members asked difficult questions. None of the stake leadership had an answer. Stuff like “ask the bishop” came up – yeah, right, the bishop has the answer. The bishops I’ve known are so busy helping people with problems, when do they have time to read about tough issues?
Anyway, bottom line, I was very saddened by the dialog between the two. Makes me realize how siloed those of us who have doubts still are.
I know it is very difficult to reach the point where you are at, but about the worst thing you can do is to lose your train of thought and act completely on emotional impulse. The only thing that comes of that is regret. It’s kind of like being so frustrated at work that you walk into the office of your boss, start throwing things around and yell, “I quit!” with no plan in place for how you are going to support yourself and family. The truth of the matter is that you have now become a new kind of “investigator” but in a different setting – one in which you know how the church is trying to present itself and not quite making it to the mark. Plenty of people never see that, which I personally feel is unfortunate. There is a lot of wisdom that can come out of a faith crisis even though it is a hard experience.
My advice would be to take it slow and use a balanced approach to researching and understanding the whats and whys of the church as you define your own beliefs about it. Don’t just read from negative sources as you try to find out where you fit in. There are many faithful members who question and have written about their experiences who keep towing the line on their terms and quite frankly, the church needs all of us who fit into that category to progress. I would add ANY church or organization needs people who question what is going on or progress doesn’t happen.
I’ve heard the phrase “throwing the baby out with the bathwater” in the context of going through a faith crisis and that is what acting impulsively does. You can reach a point where you focus on the good of the church and drop what you feel is not appropriate. Many people successfully do that – this site caters to a number of them.
Good luck working it out and may God bless.
Welcome FaithfulSkeptic and glad you are here. I, too, loved listening to many of the MormonStories podcasts. I still enjoy listening to many of them as well as others that are out there (I download and listen in my car on the way to work). I probably can’t add much to what advice you have already read, just take it slow and use us for your sounding board. I am encouraged that the church is beginning to acknowledge some of its issues with the essays it has posted on lds.org. There are also some much “gentler” books out there than Grant Palmer’s to learn the true history that Seminary ignores. Richard Bushman’s “Joseph Smith Rough Stone Rolling” is even carried by Deseret Book and is a great in-depth history of the man by a faithful and very knowledgeable member. Maybe your wife would be more open to that. I loved Bushman’s Mormonstories podcast.
Welcome Leap — we are glad you found us! I probably can’t add much that you probably haven’t already read from the comments of others as well as what you have likely seen others see in other posts in the introductions section. Take it slow and use this forum as your sounding board. The Church focuses so much on black and white/right and wrong answers that it becomes very difficult when one reaches the point you have. Still, I know that you can make things work out. Speaking from my own experience, going through the faith crisis has been enlightening to see what good works others outside the church do and how that our whole existence is so much more than just what we hear in our meetings.
Thanks Mac, and may God bless you and your family. I can truly say that reading your comments has been a BIG help to me at a crucial time in my life. You will be missed, but I believe I speak for the group when saying that we hope the best for you. Hang in there, Mackay11 and know that there is a whole group of people behind you hear and can empathize with you. When I read through what your “true” testimony is on this post, you were describing my own and it is difficult to keep quiet about it. Since the beginning of the year, I’ve wanted to share my “testimony”, but simply do not know what to say. I chickened out again yesterday, but as I sat there meditating about what I would feel right about saying simple thoughts about following the Savior floated through my mind. To do as He would have us do to our fellow beings. The problem I have is that now I view the church as my tool to reach that point (other people throughout the world have other tools they use to help themselves become compassionate and loving toward others). I don’t know how to convey that to others without totally offending the TBM crowd.
Maybe our challenge here is simple patience. Not to be silent, but to “nudge with care” and urge greater understanding slowly. Maybe I’ll figure out what to say for the July meeting — I know the feeling to share something won’t go away.
DJ, I’ve been following your recent posts lately about the calling and role that you have been given — how awesome that your stake president recognizes that need for this! That is so COOL!! Reading through your posts the last six months or so when I joined this forum, I must also say they have the right person for the job. You were one of the first who welcomed me here and helped me know that I wasn’t a freak for having the experiences and thoughts I was having.
There’s already been much good advice posted here from people who know, so I feel I have little to add. Still, I’ll put in a plug for two things that I wish people would do that you might convey to ward leadership. The first is simply to listen to us without immediately going into “fix it” mode. Our thoughts and feelings ARE valid and need to be understood with empathy. The second is to embrace diversity and I think the talks given by Elder Uchtdorf recently point out that there is a place for all. The church is not/should not be “The Borg” (Star Trek Next Generation reference) where we assimilate people into the collective, but rather try to honor and respect all.
Wow — what a lot of activity on this thread over the last day. I comment early, head to work and some other high school activities last evening and notice there’s a lot of commentary here. This is good stuff too. I hope I can reach a point where I can deal with the history issues better and it is insightful to see the view of others. I do need to comment to your question about earning salvation through works and not faith. It is an excellent one. I do think that works are important and essential to our spiritual growth. But I think our attitude toward them and what we feel in our hearts as we fulfill them is a defining characteristic of how much good the works are doing for us. Maybe an example will help.
As a TBM, the list would come around to sign up to fulfill welfare assignments. In my mind I would find myself saying “It’s about my turn to help out. I guess I better sign this sheet get off work and go”. Earlier this year, a sign up sheet came around for a welfare assignment that we learned of only two days before it was to happen. The man who announced it was obviously worried — a very kind older retired man I’ll call ‘Karl’. This time I thought “Wow, Karl is stressing out about this – I hope he’s okay. I ought to sign up to help him out. Besides, it’s a good chance to help some people in need.”.
So works are more a manifestation of living a Christlike like and they certainly don’t have to revolve around doing everything the church is saying MUST be done. It is virtually impossible to do that and live a perfect life. This is why the grace component is needed, but we in the church as a group don’t completely understand this. No matter how much we do, the Savior still has to fill in the gap. The challenge is determining for yourself what is good enough in the “works” area without feeling guilt.
I’m kind of getting from some of your earlier comments that what other people think plays a role in what you feel you have to do. I believe it will help you if you can worry less about that and determine by yourself what you can do while keeping your sanity. Go slowly — you have plenty of time to figure it out. And remember that God wants us to be happy — that’s impossible if you are stressing too much about what you are not doing.
Hang in there!
I fall into the former group that DJ references — the history for me was/is a BIG deal and the primary source of my faith crisis. Let me explain why though since it has little to do with the actual history itself. In my situation it was more about the deception (intentional or not) that went along with the church’s official version of its history. Honesty and integrity have played a very important part of my life and the emotions that I experienced when I learned of the truth made me feel very violated (I’ve included a link to my introduction earlier this year where you can get the gory details). I would have much preferred hearing that Joseph had a “spiritual experience” in the grove and that by some accounts it was “this” or others, “that” rather than the black and white version offered as the complete truth.
Now, as far as where I have landed… I am more prayerful about what I read and hear. This has helped me, so I am one of the ones who would advocate for that type of approach. I draw on the Spirit to let me know what I hear from the church leadership is what I should be following or not, so I feel it has helped me align more to live the true gospel and a Christ-like life. It has been liberating for me and a positive step, though I am sure that TBMs would beg to differ. I know I ruffled a few feathers with some of my comments in High Priests last Sunday on lesson 10 from the Joseph Fielding Smith manual about truth.
:thumbup: I only wish I could say that our lesson went as well as yours, kinglamoni and mom3. The instructor this time around is an institute teacher and read a letter a young man at BYU had written informing his leaders, family, and friends of his resigning from the church. He mentioned the number of young people leaving the church (he’s got to know about this issue since he is CES) and asked for comments on how we could help them so leaving wouldn’t happen. I mentioned that what I have noticed was that the people who seem to have the most difficult time with a faith crisis are those who believe everything is black and white. I said we had to do a better job at showing and teaching that there is a lot of grey areas and that it is okay for them to exist. Others mentioned “all the garbage on the Internet” and I commented that not all information on the Internet is a big lie about the church, but that we have some dark pieces of our history that are, in fact, true. Probably went to far at this point, but I mentioned my own personal experience from last year – how difficult and hurtful it was for me to learn about those true, dark chunks of history as I was preparing lessons in primary and to wonder why the church lied, oops, I mean was deceptive, err, I mean “wasn’t entirely honest” and upfront with me growing up as I was learning in seminary. I mentioned how the church members do beautiful and Christlike things that have touched me. I specifically mentioned how the young women in our ward “earned” the young women’s medallion for my daughter (who has a significant disability) by each completing some of the requirements necessary.
As more discussion continued and people focused on the importance of following the leaders, I mentioned that we needed to pray about what we heard them say and get our own confirmation that it is the truth and I mentioned the quote by Brigham Young about his worry that the membership would follow the leaders so closely that they would not think for themselves. A few more raised eyebrows…
Finally, near the end of the lesson, the question was posed on why people would want to leave in the first place. The stake patriarch said that it was because people have a desire to sin. That they no longer wanted to live by the commandments, but that they wanted to go out and break them. I mentioned that while that might be the case in some instances, there are many who leave about the history and the fact that the church was not upfront with it — then I had to make a quick exit as I teach Primary still during the second hour and we were going over.
Before sacrament meeting started, one of the High Priests in the class thanked me for my comments and said that he appreciated them. He mentioned some friends he had who went through some of the experiences I was mentioning. It was all civil and everything, but I guess now the High Priests Group knows where I stand.
