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SamBee wrote:

* I don’t pay fast offering enough. I invariably forget to fast on the relevant day (and I’m on medication which doesn’t really let me)

I’ve heard TBMs say any and everything with respect to how much should be paid toward fast offerings, there’s always going to be a TBM that will say you’re not paying enough regardless of how much you are paying . Who other than you is to say what’s wrong and what’s right in that regard?

You don’t want to get me started on relevant days… I’m a broken man in that regard. What’s more important, the day it’s done on whether it’s done at all?

SamBee wrote:

* I watch films, read books, and listen to music, which would not be in line with their ideas. I have a life membership to a local arthouse cinema.

Again, you’ll eventually run into a TBM that will take issue with something you like. My personal favorite (to be heard in and outside the church): Well we don’t watch TV in our home. I think a part of human nature is to try to assess how we stack up against others and we’ll pick those things that we think make ourselves look the best. We’re a church of humans so it stands to reason a TBM here or there is going to make it a point to let you know that rocking out to the latest Black Sabbath album is wrong.

SamBee wrote:

* I use bad language, and swear like a trooper outside the church.

No worries there. I’m sure some day you’ll progress enough to the point where you feel comfortable swearing like a trooper inside the church. Baby steps. :angel:

SamBee wrote:

* I mix with people who smoke, drink and sometimes even take drugs.

* I’m friendly with women of below church virtue (trying to put it diplomatically without being rude about them)

As long as you don’t mix with publicans. Those guys are jerks.

SamBee wrote:

* I’m guilty of sins of omission.

No one is exempt from that one.

SamBee wrote:

* I don’t think highly of Boyd K. Packer, but I do sustain him (does that make me a hypocrite?)

I think sustain means help other people become what you are sustaining them to be, I do not believe that it is a process of confirming that they are what you sustain them to be. I hope that makes sense. Given my personal definition, in a way sustaining Boyd K. Packer is saying you are trying to help him become an Apostle. 😈

SamBee wrote:

* I study other spiritual traditions, and may be attending a Buddhist retreat to dodge Christmas.

13th article of faith. D&C 109:7. Alma 32. Isn’t that what a TBM is supposed to do?

SamBee wrote:

So am I on the road to perdition or not?

You’re on the path of life. Life is kinda like that.

[nibbler]

For sure.

[nibbler]

You’re right, there’s never been an official policy with respect to net vs. gross. The lesson manuals also never state one way or the other, they all stick to the same statements that are left to interpretation.

I brought this up in another thread and as best I can tell it all depends on whether gross or net has taken up a life of it’s own at the local level. Gross has been staunchly defended in my area, others haven’t experienced that. I’ve said that the manuals do not preach payment on gross, yet payment on gross has been a part of nearly every lesson I’ve been witness to. I think it really comes down to whether any given unit has a person that has a strong opinion one way or the other and whether they enjoy voicing that opinion.

DarkJedi wrote:

So that brings up the point alluded to here that some people do believe they have been blessed by paying tithing and that others can be, too. My question for those people, and I’ll politely call you out Rich Dunn (but I don’t want to argue with you), exactly what blessings have you received for paying tithing? Is there any way that it could be explained some other way? Are there people who don’t pay tithing who have similar blessings?

It all depends on how you define blessings. Some expect monetary blessings, like the $20 bill that floats past you down the gutter after a strong rain; others might see the blessings as intangibles, like a liberation from materialism.

Not to be too dark here but when it comes to blessings you have to admit that the concept of deity is sitting in a very good position. Someone that interprets something as a blessing will attribute it to God and their faith is bolstered. If that same person feels deprived of a blessing it is because they did not have enough faith or because their desires did not align with God’s desires. It’s a win-win for maintaining belief in deity. I don’t know why I bring that up, it’s very dark commentary, but I’ll toss it out there nonetheless.

[nibbler]

lyndsiloohoo wrote:

Sometimes I wonder if I made the right decision [to get baptized] because I seem so unworthy and unfixable.

I’ve really struggled with issues of self worth, I think on some levels we all have. I’ve only recently started to be more at peace with myself and my journey but I still don’t have a definitive answer. I think it’s important to take some time to try to identify what forces make us happy and what forces make us unhappy. It’s a start at least. After that the challenge becomes how to nourish the positive forces and how to eliminate the negative forces. It’s a lifelong process.

I’ll enumerate a few forces I discovered that are present in church that have made me unhappy. Confession time for me:

Shorty after joining the church I started feeling like I was losing my identity. It was occurring on a subconscious level at the time but reflecting back I think that was what was going on. I don’t know how to articulate this but the feeling was that my quest for perfection was turning me into the borg, I don’t know of any other way to put it other than that. I really didn’t understand how the “perfect” me could be distinguishable from anyone elses’ perfect them. I was nearly always unhappy because I was slowly losing a part of myself. Now I really have to question whether the difficulties I was facing rested with assimilating to the gospel or assimilating to church culture.

There are lots of expectations in church that can easily be judged via external observation. This can create a judgmental atmosphere among a group of imperfect people. At times we really are no different that the Pharisees of Jesus’ day. The WoW is a prime example, people use compliance to the WoW to judge others all the time… and the really surprising thing is that people in the church will similarly judge people outside the church, people that haven’t even made a commitment to keep the WoW. It boggles the mind. Ok, so now I’m judging so I need to stop there. Still it makes me very sad, possibly even approaching angry at our culture, that there are many people that don’t go to church simply because they would feel shamed by the membership… for whatever reason. It’s hard to feel happy when you feel like you are being judged. The thing that helps me is to recognize that we’re all imperfect. It also helps me to maybe reflect on how I am judgmental and how I might change.

This one really goes along with the others, there are many expectations in church that can be explicitly measured. You know whether or not you’re failing at paying tithing, HT/VT percentages may be way down, the missionaries came back and you don’t have that list for them, etc. Now I do feel it is very important to set goals for ourselves and that the goal must be something that we can measure to determine whether or not we are making progress. At the same time there are goals that we determine for ourselves and in the culture of the church there are goals that are placed on us. Which goals truly benefit us the most? I’ve found that goals that are placed upon me often make me unhappy because they don’t take me into into account. Maybe with where I’m currently at in life it’s just out of the realm of possibility for me to meet someone elses’ expectations that have been placed upon me. The unfulfilled expectation will often turn toward guilt, which has all come about due to an unfair expectation that has been placed on me.

Aside: Personal goals set by myself take into account my uniqueness, my current strengths and weaknesses, and most importantly I get to decide what I want the next step to be. Personal goals also have the benefit of taking as much time as I need to meet them. I feel happier with this approach.

Guilt. The crushing guilt. I feel like guilt is used as a motivator in church culture and guilt will never, ever bring happiness. Example: Quite often priesthood lessons turn into a 40 minute guilt trip about not doing home teaching, we just had one last Sunday. Is anyone going to come out of that type of meeting feeling good and motivated to do home teaching? Now I do try to put myself in the shoes of the EQP/HPGL. Home teaching isn’t getting done and it is a way to minister to those in need, and it’s important to discuss the topic and motivate the brethren into action. It’s a difficult balance but mostly it’s turned into another vehicle to contribute to the guilt that every member already feels. For better or for worse I’ve decided to let go of guilt and no longer allow it to be a motivating force in my life. So far the fruit has been good because adjusting myself to that mindset has made a drastic difference in my overall happiness.

I do want to say that these observations are just mine, and are solely interpretations from my perspective and in no way reflect others’ perspectives. I also want to apologize. I just ranted about things that made me unhappy and didn’t offer much, if anything, by way of things that do make me happy in church. I presented a very one-sided view. Do know that I struggle with faith but remain as active as I possibly can within the church because the little faith I do hold on to tells me that I’ll be much happier fighting my battles inside the church than I would be fighting those same battles outside church.

[nibbler]

I surprised myself by voting no… even though I contacted my BP three weeks ago about meeting up with him. I intended to inform him that I wanted out of my calling and the plan was to just fade into the background while I sorted things out.

The BP was out of town that week so I missed my meeting, then I found this site. I’ve since postponed the meeting as this site has given me a lot to think about.

I answered no to the question:

Cadence wrote:

If you had that magic wand would you wave it?

Personally I think if I ever did decide to leave the church I’d want it to be messy. Now I’m not saying that I would make a scene, but I think on some levels I’d be depriving myself from the insights that the hardships of leaving the church would provide. There’s probably a lesson in there somewhere, even if I didn’t appreciate or even enjoy learning it at the time. Something to look back on and recognize as a learning experience. Big talk from someone that isn’t on that path though.

And it’s very different for me anyway. Being a convert I’m sure some family members would jump for joy if I told them I was done with the church. I understand how a departure for most on this site would be far, far, far more messy than it would for me. I don’t have a host of people waiting in the wings that would want to make my life miserable. My worst case is I’d probably be annoyed by people after becoming someone’s project.

I’d also currently answer no just because I think there are some good lessons for my children to learn in church. In that sense church still plays the role of a community of moral anchors in their lives. The church is the door they need to enter through and then they can walk their own path on the other side.

Maybe I should have gone with “it depends.” :

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[list]

[nibbler]

I tend to dig up old threads… I came across this one and reading it made me transition to “one of those days.” I’ll open the wound again and do my best to remain civil. I’ll read the link in the OP, but as expressed by someone else in the thread… I feel like I’ve beat the subject to death.

I agree with some of those latter comments from Brian Johnston. I’m a convert and one thing that felt right about this church in the beginning was that it jived with all the other crazy stuff God had done in the past. Call a 14 year old kid on a farm to change the world? Right up God’s alley as far as I was concerned.

Brian Johnston wrote:

I’m often curious why BoA discussions (or problems) never seem to sidestep into the Book of Moses. Both are set side-by-side in the Pearl of Great Price. Why doesn’t anyone ever seem to have a problem with the Book of Moses first? There was no text. Joseph made no claims of translating a historical record. He just sat down and wrote it out.

Fair questions. I think you touched on the key difference between the two, Joseph made no claims of translating a historical record with respect to the Book of Moses. The BoA has always been put forth as a translation of historical text and it seems very natural to see how someone might feel deceived when they find out that most signs point toward that not being the case. In short: Book of Moses – no way to know one way or the other; BoA – might have got caught in a lie. It’s the lie more that the origin itself.

If anything the Book of Moses origin story supports the glaring issues with the BoA origin story, it raises other questions. I’ve made the BoA/Book of Moses connection in the past: If JS was comfortable stating that the Book of Moses was direct revelation why wouldn’t he make that same claim with regards to the BoA, especially if it was the truth? Why invent a translation story? Did he himself believe he was translating when he was actually receiving direct revelation? To me that’s the best case scenario, that he received a direct revelation but through imperfection believed it was a translation.

Sometimes tone isn’t conveyed properly in text. I don’t know if you’ve ever sent an e-mail just to be surprised by a response wondering “why you are so angry” when you truthfully weren’t. Many words for saying I hope I didn’t set a negative tone. I’m just explaining my point of view when I first took issue with the BoA. I know most on this site have no issue with the origin story and instead focus on the principles the book teaches. That’s fine, to some degree I understand and also believe similarly. That was my takeaway from the other thread. Not to be flippant but you can get inspiration from an episode of Underdog (granted there are varying levels of concentration of inspirational material between tPoGP and Underdog so one must decide where to best employ one’s time when looking for inspirational materiel). Were I still need work is figuring how that translates to maintaining harmonious coexistence in an organization that claims divine authority, to be the one true church, etc. when the very foundations may be based on lies or half-truths. Inspirational scriptures, manuals, classes, talks aside… how views toward divine authority (to put it brief) survives and the implications of the death of that belief are something I’ll need to work through.

Maybe it all goes back to my concentration of inspired material thought. Maybe it’s a choice between sifting through a sea of principles and beliefs to get at inspiration things vs. the highly concentrated inspirational principles to be found in the church.

I think I’ll stop there for now, but I do want to contribute something more positive and uplifting to the thread in the near future. I want to go back and review some of my notes from some time ago and maybe share a few things. I’ll try not to go too far down the apologetics route. In the end apologetics didn’t work for me and I know many people on the site wouldn’t appreciate it if I were to fill up a page with apologetic material. Still I hate to leave things off on a downer note.

[nibbler]

Yes, PowerPoint or any other visual aide cannot be used in a sacrament meeting but they can be used in any other meeting. I’ve seen PowerPoint used in church quite a bit, I have mixed feelings about it.

[This is a PPI thread that deviated a bit and now I’m going to deviate further, sorry]

Disclaimer: I don’t see anything wrong with people using tablets, laptops, etc. in church.

In some ways I think using technology in church can create a dividing wedge between the haves and the have nots. I remember when PalmPilots, Blackberries, tablets, etc. started to integrate into our culture. The joke in Elders Quorum in the PalmPilot days was that the teacher would ask people to “open their scriptures…” and everyone would bring out their various electronic devices, you’d see little to no actual books. No one tells that joke anymore because the devices are 100% integrated into our culture.

The nature of my calling at the time this phenomenon was occurring involved working with people of little means. I didn’t think too much of it until the day I saw someone in a sacrament meeting fire up a tablet to use the LDS Hymns app when there were a half dozen hymnals within arms reach. I couldn’t help but think of some of the people that I served that were struggling to make ends meet and think how they might feel. It also conjured thoughts of how one of the neat things about the temple was how everyone is on equal footing… even if in appearance only. I decided to stick with the traditional books.

I’ve had similar feelings when someone brings in a laptop, sometimes even their own projector, to give a PowerPoint presentation in a lesson. I realize that laptops are nearly ubiquitous these days but it reminds me of the days where I was a bit sensitive toward using expensive things to teach lessons to people that might have been struggling to pay the rent.

Flash forward many years and I finally succumbed to the temptation of the tablet. I just got tired of carrying a huge bag full of books and manuals to church all the time, in the end convenience won out. Still, I do try to justify the 180 to myself by noting how most everyone has a cellphone capable of running the church apps these days. In recalling all of those feelings to post in this thread I may decide to reevaluate my more recent adoption of using the tablet.

Heck, this is probably me just being crazy. I don’t know whether that sort of thing would ever bother someone that can’t afford the tech.

[nibbler]

Well given my experience I will simply state that I find that amazing. You really have no idea how much gross has been pushed and net suppressed in this area.

I believe that the conclusion brought up in the tread is correct, namely that it is left up to interpretation of the individual. It is nice to not be commanded in all things and allow people to discover for themselves – still it seems like there is a wide disparity in belief on what constitutes a full tithe. Many people aren’t ever going to question what they see as an authoritative statement that favors payment on gross and I’m sure people struggling with the principle of tithing in this area would love to know that there are other areas where paying on net would also be considered a full tithe. Maybe they wouldn’t struggle as much if they paid on net. Maybe if they had been paying gross for several years and then moved to a “net ward” they’d become resentful for having paid on gross all those years and just stop paying altogether. Not saying this is me, but I certainly see the potential. Maybe those people deserve a little direction that a definitive policy would provide.

Maybe I have a new crusade. Not to declare “pay on net” from the rooftops mind you, but just to take a hard line with the 1970 letter and urge people to prayerfully come to their own conclusion.

[nibbler]

I found and processed this tread in light of some of the more recent tithing settlement threads… since we are approaching that time of year.

Quote:

2) The current general understanding of most active members and local leadership is that an honest tithe represents 10% of gross.

Quote:

2) I wouldn’t say most understand a full tithe to be on gross. It seems that net is widely accepted.

I don’t mean to open the debate, just going on the record that in all my years of being a member I’ve only ever heard 10% of gross. If someone suggests 10% of net they are quickly and emphatically shot down. Over the years I’ve been in several lessons given on tithing and now, after looking back at some of the manuals, I notice that the definition of 10% on gross is never stated yet it is always a part of the lesson. Many of those lessons on tithing even came to a grinding halt to explain how tithing is really 10% of gross to someone that had stated that they have been paying on net all this time. Afterwards there’s never any debate. It’s simply gross, and people move on. Now this may be the direct result of the vocal few that wear the mantle of the seasoned member but for all intents and purposes 10% of gross might as well be the official position of the church. There’s no discussion of opposing viewpoints, it’s gross and that’s how it is.

Old-Timer wrote:

If I never have the money, there is no way in heaven or hell I’m paying tithing on it. That’s not just wrong, imo; it’s stupid – and I don’t care who said it.

Ha. Look at it this way. You paid your tithing on the money you received from your employer. If the government didn’t pay tithing on the money it received from your employer that’s their bad.

[nibbler]

SilentDawning wrote:

whether my mortality is bothering me since I’m not a full-fledged TR-holder any longer.

No more than anyone else on this planet.

I’ve heard several stories about people that made sure they have a temple recommend even though they had no ability to actually go to a temple. They still felt the importance behind getting a temple recommend even thought they knew they’d never be attending. I don’t mean to belittle that experience, if it brings peace and comfort into someone’s life then holding a current temple recommend is a very good thing, a positive influence in their life. That said I think we put too much stock into what amounts to a small piece of paper. If you feel like you are “right” with God then what difference is a temple recommend going to make one way or the other?

Great. Now I’ve got this mental image of St. Peter at the pearly gates with a barcode scanner.

[nibbler]

angel333 wrote:

Why can’t I just tell him through email or call him and tell him Yes I am a full tithe payer?

I think that if I were a bishop that I would appreciate that. I mean, it seems like a lot of overhead to get at information that the temple recommend covers anyway. Then again it makes sense in the days of 2 year temple recommends and I suppose the tithing settlement covers people that don’t go to the temple but pay tithing.

I’ve often viewed the tithing settlements as a means to allow the bishop to get to know people and have personal contact with everyone in their unit. They might otherwise be too busy and never get a chance to get that personal contact with a lot of people. I’m sure many appreciate that contact and I’m sure there are some that would feel slighted if they never got one on one time with their bishop. In that sense I always assumed that tithing was really secondary in importance, just something to facilitate a once per year contact with the bishop.

I didn’t really feel the need to go last year and I was a bit surprised at the level of effort employed to get me to go to tithing settlement. The bishop’s executive secretary quite literally hounded me about setting an appointment. It was a bit strange and I really didn’t get what all the fuss was about. After that experience it no longer feels like a purely voluntary meeting. I assume they have to report on percentages similar to HT/VT. We completed 73% of tithing settlements, or something along those lines, and that a low percentage would be a black eye.

[nibbler]

Cadence wrote:

cwald wrote:

Cadence wrote:

First mistake was going to tithing settlement.

Careful. This is the kind of cynicism that got me put in the straight jacket last month.

But I was serious. I really think every single member should refrain from attending tithing settlement. So much stress for so little reason.

This brings up an interesting point…

For those that chose not to pay tithing… do you go to tithing settlement? I can see how someone in that situation might view tithing settlement as a means of exerting social pressure to pay tithing or a meeting that would only serve to make them feel embarrassed or ashamed. I.e. you sit down with your bishop, significant other, and your children – the bishop hands you a piece of paper with $0 on it and then there’s this awkward moment where there’s the expectation that the non-payer needs to offer an explanation to the group why they aren’t paying tithing. Seems like an all around stressful situation.

[nibbler]

richdunn wrote:

I taught primary during my crisis, and I kept teaching the kids that the church had a lot of responsibility for its persecution, and at one point I told them it wasn’t known whether or not JS ordered the attempted assassination of Gov. Boggs, rather than outright denying it.

Ok, I admit I’m a bit curious… how did that subject come up in primary? 🙂 I joined the church later in life so I missed out on primary and YM, is church history a subject that is taught to some of the older primary students?

richdunn wrote:

I thought at one point about teaching an uncorrelated history of the teachings of these prophets, but I soon ceased to see the helpfulness of that. It would be interesting though.

In recent years I think the manuals have done a better job with providing a focused narrative centering around a gospel principle. I may be remembering incorrectly but it seems like the early ToPotC lessons were just quote after quote after quote with no context given. Now that the lessons are more centered around a principle I think it may be a bit easier to go to other sources and only use an example/quote or two from the manual.

I was lucky in that I taught 2nd and 3rd Sunday EQ lessons for a little over two years and nearly all of that was during those two years where lessons came from the Gospel Principles book. Nearly zero church history, most lessons were on universal principles common to everyone, etc.

Good luck with teaching out of the new manual. I took a quick peek at it online, skimming the chapter headings. Some look like they would provide a good forum for people in our position: [list]

[*]Our Search for Truth

[*]Love and Concern for All Our Father’s Children

[/list]

I’d encourage you to post up questions about specific upcoming lessons in the future because based on the chapter headings, some of them look like they would be difficult to give… at least for me.

[nibbler]

I was Elder’s Quorum instructor before my current calling. Most of the time I was in that calling was during that two year stint where they asked us to teach out of the Gospel Principles manual. I’d try to ask questions that got people thinking; at the time I was in the process of deconstructing my faith so quite often I’d just ask the quorum the same questions I was asking myself. :shh: I always got very good answers from very intelligent people. It was a great experience.

richdunn wrote:

When teaching, do you try and withhold bias?

Yes and no. I didn’t hold back as I was legitimately interested in how members of the class would answer my questions. At the same time I didn’t frame my questions in a context that would challenge the church or its leaders, I tried to frame it in the context of understanding the reasons behind the commandments and more importantly how to overcome the challenges of the “natural man” to live true principles.

richdunn wrote:

My bias is that you can’t judge someone if they lose their faith after a life shattering event such as the death of a child, or some other horrible thing. However, the lesson was all about the expectation that we keep our faith and use the event to make our faith stronger. I asked at one point if this was a fair expectation and got some wide eyes and a bewildered “YES!” from someone. I had questioned an apostle!

I asked those sorts of questions all the time, though I’d soften them up a bit. That particular one never came up but maybe I would have first played up the sentiment that it was 100% natural to have a faith crisis and then ask… can you imagine if you lost a child and how difficult that would be? How could we survive that event without becoming embittered? How could we turn an event like that into an experience that built us up as opposed to one that tore us down? What direction would we take going into the future? How difficult of a path would that be? etc. I realize that this isn’t the same line of questioning but my experience is that it generated some good discussion. I wouldn’t even get into the expectations of people external to the life shattering event looking in to judge the person that was going through it. Maybe my goal would have been to ask questions that are aimed at putting everyone in the shoes of the person going through the life altering event to hopefully make them less likely to judge…

I don’t see myself as a good teacher, I have difficulties in communicating thoughts, but I often got positive feedback from people in the quorum… but it was a very nice, intelligent and humble group. Besides, people always say “that was a good lesson” if nothing more than to be polite. I really did take every opportunity that I had to teach them as an opportunity to ask a question related to something I wanted to learn about the subject at hand. I’d ask the questions and draw on the experiences of the quorum to learn new things. It was my little secret, looking back I guess that was a bit selfish of me but it did generate discussion.

The Teaching of Presidents of the Church manuals are an interesting thing… They got introduced at the very trail end of my mission. People didn’t know how to teach out of them then and they don’t know how to teach out of them now. The overwhelming majority of lessons I’ve sat in on that have come out of that manual have been simple start reading from the beginning of the manual with an occasional pause to ask “In your own words, what is President _____ saying?”

When teaching out of ToPotC manuals I’ve tried to find a quote or two out of the manual to share and just teach the principles from other sources like scriptures, history (world or church, positive or negative examples), etc. Hard manuals to teach lessons out of.

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