[NoahVail]

I am full of thinking about this OP.

Ebowalker wrote:

I came from an abusive, alcoholic and dysfunctional family.

Woohoo! Nice to meet a fellow abusee. For the record, been-abused humor is a thing with me.

Ebowalker wrote:

Adult Children of Alcoholics & Dysfunctional Families.

Suddenly, I want a business card.

Ebowalker wrote:

We share common negative traits and one of them is black and white thinking, so I have to be very careful with General Conference.

I’ve done a fair job moving away from black & white thinking over the last decade.

However, this has wondering if BWT indicates a history of abuse in others. Perhaps. Needs more thought.

Ebowalker wrote:

Every talk that begins with a speaker talking about his/her wonderful family is difficult for me. Having the choir sing “I am a Child of God” (…and he has sent me here. has given me an earthly home, with PARENTS KIND AND DEAR) is an automatic shut down

I am viscerally repulsed by this hymn, every time I hear it. I’ve always thought it was because it’s a funeral dirge written for 4yos but maybe there’s more to it.

Ebowalker wrote:

GC speaker theme of constantly mentioning the death of some family member will only get a response of “well, try dealing with that as a 6 years old” from me. I do try to not put this through a mental filter but it is so hard when it is so ingrained.

Are you saying you were 6 when your parents passed away?

Now more about me.

I personally identify as a latent 6yo because I ID with that Cardissian who was holding Picard hostage.

&

I haven’t had any family members die yet that I’m in a hurry to see again. (brother, not really. mom, okay maybe but she needed death. dad, not a chance in hell, other relatives, not especially)

Ebowalker wrote:

The Red Flag for me was Pres Nelson’s Sunday morning talk:

Quote:

Your mountains will vary. And yet the answer to each of your challenges is to increase your faith. That takes work .

Lazy learners and lax disciples will always struggle to muster even a particle of faith.

To do anything well requires effort.

This has been garnering a lot of discussion.

Ebowalker wrote:

I have struggled with my faith in the last few years because of intense harassment that happened when I was in the army that just triggered so much childhood pain in me. I hit bottom as far as faith is concerned. It is very painful to be in recovery and having your highest leader, tell you that you are a lazy learner and lax disciple because of the survival skills you developed as a traumatized child. Those words shot through me like a knife. Recovery is HARD work.

This sort of speaks to your point. I’m coming to associate ADD with PTSD, in that our reward mechanism is stunted. We don’t get satisfaction from typical levels of learning (or receive expected caution for some levels of risk). It takes a lot result before we feel reward, which makes the process very unpredictable for us.

I have personally found that this (and some other conditions that have me misunderstanding communication) leads to my inability to discern a whispering spirit or perceive blessings.

Ebowalker wrote:

I am really hoping someone can help me interpret this in a better way. I get it, he is a very elderly man, comes from a very different generation and experience from me, he is using language that resonates with him.

I am inclined to set this aside for the moment…

Ebowalker wrote:

This is language that seems to motivate people raised in healthy environments, but certainly never in unhealthy homes.

…set that aside in favor of THIS.

I grant that Elder Holland occasionally acknowledges our existence. Past that, GAs sometimes send a nod in our general direction (sucks that you got abused but Jesus still loves you) but this seems to be where our reality begins and ends with them.

I think the practical result of this is a default member mindset that renders our reality taboo.

Ebowalker wrote:

But why use negative language like this when talking to millions of people of various backgrounds?

Two possible reasons are because GAs are ill equipped or because normies may be distressed or confused in the presence of our reality.

Ebowalker wrote:

My psychologist is very quick to point out that “tough love” and critical parenting DOES NOT WORK and leaves deep scars.

Yep. It’s nothing but parenting for the parent’s sake.

[NoahVail]

(someone improved formatting of Pres Oaks talk. here is their result)

The Inspired Constitution of the United States

In this troubled time, I have felt to speak about the inspired constitution of the United States. This constitution is of special importance to our members in the United States, but it is also a common heritage of constitutions around the world.

A constitution is the foundation of government. It provides structure and limits for the exercise of government powers. The United States constitution is the oldest written constitution still in force today. Though originally adopted by only a small number of colonies, it soon became a model world-wide. Today, every nation except three have adopted written constitutions.

In these remarks I do not speak for any political party or other group. I speak for the United States constitution, which I have studied for more than 60 years. I speak from my experience as a law clerk to the chief justice of the United States supreme court. I speak from my 15 years as a professor of law, and my 3½ years as a justice on the Utah supreme court. Most importantly, I speak from 37 years as an apostle of Jesus Christ, responsible to study the meaning of the divinely inspired United States constitution to the work of his restored church.

The United States constitution is unique because God revealed that he “established” it “for the rights and protection of all flesh.” That is why this constitution is of special concern for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout the world. Whether or how its principles should be applied in other nations of the world is for them to decide.

What was God’s purpose in establishing the United States constitution? We see it in the doctrine of moral agency. In the first decade of the restored church, its members on the western frontier were suffering private and public persecution. Partly this was because of their opposition to the human slavery then existing in the United States. In these unfortunate circumstances, God revealed through the prophet joseph smith eternal truths about his doctrine.

God has given his children moral agency — the power to decide and to act. The most desirable condition for the exercise of that agency is maximum freedom for men and women to act according to their individual choices. Then, the revelation explains, “every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.” “Therefore,” the Lord revealed, “it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another”.

This obviously means that human slavery is wrong and according to the same principle, it is wrong for citizens to have no voice in the selection of their rulers or the making of their laws. Our belief that the United States constitution was divinely inspired does not mean that divine revelation dictated every word and phrase, such as the provisions allocating the number of representatives from each state or the minimum age of each.

The constitution was not “a fully grown document,” said President J. Reuben Clark. “On the contrary,” he explained, “we believe it must grow and develop to meet the changing needs of an advancing world”. For example, inspired amendments abolished slavery and gave women the right to vote. However, we do not see inspiration in every supreme court decision interpreting the constitution.

I believe the United States constitution contains at least five divinely inspired principles. First is the principle that the source of government power is the people. In a time when sovereign power was universally assumed to come from the divine right of kings or from military power, attributing sovereign power to the people was revolutionary. Philosophers had advocated this, but the United States constitution was the first to apply it.

Sovereign power in the people does not mean that mobs or other groups of people can intervene to intimidate or force government action. The constitution established a constitutional democratic republic, where the people exercise their power through their elected representatives.

A second inspired principle is the division of delegated power between the nation and its subsidiary states. In our federal system, this unprecedented principle has sometimes been altered by inspired amendments, such as those abolishing slavery and extending voting rights to women, mentioned earlier. Significantly, the United States constitution limits the national government to the exercise of powers granted expressly or by implication, and it reserves all other government powers “to the states respectively or to the people”.

Another inspired principle is the separation of powers. Well over a century before our 1787 constitutional convention, the English parliament pioneered the separation of legislative and executive authority when they wrested certain powers from the king. The inspiration in the American convention was to delegate independent executive, legislative, and judicial powers so these three branches could exercise checks upon one another.

A fourth inspired principle is in the cluster of vital guarantees of individual rights and specific limits on government authority in the Bill of Rights, adopted by amendment just three years after the constitution went into force. A bill of rights was not new. Here, the inspiration was in the practical implementation of principles pioneered in England, beginning with the Magna Carta. The writers of the constitution were familiar with these because some of the colonial charters had such guarantees. Without a bill of rights, America could not have served as the host nation for the restoration of the gospel, which began just three decades later.

There was divine inspiration in the original provision that there should be no religious test for public office, but the addition of the religious freedom and anti-establishment guarantees in the First Amendment was vital. We also see divine inspiration in the First Amendment’s freedoms of speech and press and in the personal protections in other amendments, such as for criminal prosecutions.

Fifth and finally, I see divine inspiration in the vital purpose of the entire constitution. We are to be governed by law and not by individuals, and our loyalty is to the constitution and its principles and processes, not to any office-holder. In this way, all persons are to be equal before the law. These principles block the autocratic ambitions that have corrupted democracy in some countries. They also mean that none of the three branches of government should be dominant over the others or prevent the others from performing their proper constitutional functions to check one another.

Despite the divinely inspired principles of the United States constitution, when exercised by imperfect mortals their intended effects have not always been achieved. Important subjects of law-making, such as some laws governing family relationships, have been taken from the states by the federal government. The First Amendment guarantee of free speech has sometimes been diluted by suppression of unpopular speech. The principle of separation of powers has always been under pressure with the ebb and flow of one branch of government exercising or inhibiting the powers delegated to another.

There are other threats that undermine the inspired principles of the United States constitution. The stature of the constitution is diminished by efforts to substitute current societal trends as the reason for its founding, instead of liberty and self-government. The authority of the constitution is trivialized when candidates or officials ignore its principles. The dignity and force of the constitution is reduced by those who refer to it like a loyalty test or a political slogan, instead of its lofty status as a source of authorization for and limits on government authority.

Our belief in divine inspiration gives Latter-day Saints a unique responsibility to uphold and defend the United States constitution and principles of constitutionalism wherever we live. We should trust in the Lord and be positive about this nation’s future. What else are faithful Latter-day Saints to do? We must pray for the Lord to guide and bless all nations and their leaders. This is part of our article of faith. Being subject to presidents or rulers of course poses no obstacle to our opposing individual laws or policies. It does require that we exercise our influence civilly and peacefully within the framework of our constitutions and applicable laws. On contested issues, we should seek to moderate and unify.

There are other duties that are part of upholding the inspired constitution. We should learn and advocate the inspired principles of the constitution. We should seek out and support wise and good persons who will support those principles in their public actions. We should be knowledgeable citizens who are active in making our influence felt in civic affairs.

In the United States and other democracies, political influence is exercised by running for office (which we encourage), by voting, by financial support, by membership and service in political parties, and by on-going communications to officials, parties, and candidates. To function well, a democracy needs all of these, but a conscientious citizen does not need to provide all of them.

There are many political issues, and no party, platform, or individual candidate can satisfy all personal preferences. Each citizen must therefore decide which issues are most important to him or her at any particular time. Then, members should seek inspiration on how to exercise their influence according to their individual priorities. This process will not be easy. It may require changing party support or candidate choices, even from election to election. Such independent actions will sometimes require voters to support candidates or political parties or platforms whose other positions they cannot approve. That is one reason we encourage our members to refrain from judging one another in political matters.

We should never assert that a faithful Latter-day Saint cannot belong to a particular party or vote for a particular candidate. We teach correct principles and leave our members to choose how to prioritize and apply those principles on the issues presented from time to time. We also insist, and we ask our local leaders to insist, that political choices and affiliations not be the subject of teachings or advocacy in any of our church meetings. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will, of course, exercise its right to endorse or oppose specific legislative proposals that we believe will impact the free exercise of religion or the essential interests of church organizations.

I testify of the divinely inspired constitution of the United States and pray that we who recognize the divine being who inspired it will always uphold and defend its great principles.

In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

[NoahVail]

Pres Oaks talk on the US Constitution seems to be stirring some conversation. The transcripts aren’t up yet so I grabbed the subtitles off of Youtube and massaged them into readability.

Posted here: https://ghostbin.co/paste/o5b25

[NoahVail]

Old-Timer wrote:

Also, Elder Renlund has aged a lot visually. He looked like he had lost a lot of weight in a non-healthy way. I was shocked at the physical change and wondered if he had been sick. I knew Elder Gong had COVID, and I wondered if Elder Renlund did, as well.

Brother Eyring’s gait looks an awful lot like mine when my back goes out.

[NoahVail]

I felt Brother Renlund led off with a terrible analogy about overcoming adversity – where siblings grow up in a bizarrely fictional world were everything is equal. We could add a dime’s worth of reality by having the girl get 70% of the allowance her brother receives for the same chores.

But then he brought it all home in some powerful ways. We should be Catchers of Stones hurled at the weak and vulnerable – this should include stones hurled by other members.

[NoahVail]

I found some redeeming content in Elder Anderson’s talk. I might deliver it this way:

The worth of an anti-abortion position is directly tied to the ongoing, needed and beneficial aid one gives to expectant mothers, who lack clear resources for long term care of their child.

[NoahVail]

On Own Now wrote:

I would like to see fewer talks on paying tithing and obedience and more talks directed at being a true disciple by not letting differences of opinion, no matter how large, drive us to judging our fellow church members (Romans 14) and by going beyond major cultural-political differences to treat with an abundance of kindness the people who think and act the least like us — to treat people in our out-groups the way we would want to be treated (Sermon on the Mount, Parable of the Good Samaritan)… In short: about setting aside our outrage and focusing on being a better person (Sermon on the Mount) and making the world a better place through our actions rather than our arguments (Sermon on the Plain).

As an all-thumbs saint, I have many thumbs up to give to this.

[NoahVail]

nibbler wrote:

Let’s not do politics, especially in a conference thread. Besides, I’m sure leaders will say things during conference to disappoint/anger both sides.

sidebar: I feel that discussions of the broad harms caused by politics honors the intent of reduced political discussions, by focusing on unifying aspects of political damage, revealing the healing that needs to follow and (hopefully) identify how the Church can help achieve these things.

[NoahVail]

DarkJedi wrote:

I have said this previously, but not in a while. I was in full faith crisis mode when many of things were happening with my children. Some of them didn’t happen because of my objection but some did (like my son receiving the MP and endowment before his mission). Not being part of those is one of the biggest regrets I have.

I don’t know the details of your crises but I can certainly sympathize.

My crises have always been more about my relationship with my ward than with my faith. I believe we’d be more active now, if we had an alternative path to Church programs than thru our ward/stake.

[NoahVail]

SamBee wrote:

It simply isn’t uplifting or godly. We are entering a very dark period of human history, and pretending everything is okay is not on.

I think they’re all dark. I mean I can’t pick a period where there wasn’t widespread, life-changingly awful stuff happening. Just in the time encompassing my grandparents lives and my own, I see other instances of every type of present day suffering – usually in degrees that are measurably worse.

[NoahVail]

DarkJedi wrote:

This sort of goes along with the part of the discussion about standard scriptures. In above posts the NCC is mentioned as license holder of the NRSV.

This discussion surprised me as I saw my affinity for KJV as being one of the few points where my preferences aligned with members in general. This may be another instance where my tastes are at odds w/ LDS culture (eg: I am repulsed the by the repetition of hymns, literally written for 5yos).

[NoahVail]

Roy wrote:

I would have been disappointing to not be able to perform this ordinance and the bishop has fairly wide latitude in deciding if a person without a temple recommend can participate.

More recently has been the priesthood ordination of my son. I received my priesthood at the hands of my father and I like to see his name on my priesthood line of authority. I would like to be able to pass on this “tradition” to my son. Once again, priesthood ordination happens under the keys of the bishop and at his discretion.

I have never heard of a bishop excluding a priesthood holder from participating in a local ordinance, for anything less than an actual grievous sin. I wasn’t even aware it was on the table.

I suspect one factor is that I live in a region dominated by converts. I’m fairly typical where my only member-relatives are my adult kids. That makes me ~100% of their Church influence, meaning that their activity isn’t likely to exceed my own.

[NoahVail]

Roy wrote:

I have felt that I stood the best chance of being permitted to participate in my children’s milestone/rite of passage events if I . . .

I think this confuses me. What sort of events (that included your children) could you be excluded from?

Roy wrote:

Today I received a call from a church brother asking if I could receive ward/stake church leadership representatives into my home this week.

No.

[NoahVail]

SamBee wrote:

I really don’t think I can stomach a Covid conference. This disease has already done enough harm, not only medically and economically but in letting evil people take advantage in this situation.

I’m remembering when the Romney nomination brought evangelical religious bigotry to the surface. Even tho anti-LDS animosity had long been pervasive within Christianity, it wasn’t fully embraced by the majority. That helped bring about a happy ending, where long-held hostility withered in sunshine and became less acceptable.

I had held out some hope that the same sort of factious animosity (further highlighted by Covid) would have withered as well. I now fear it is widespread and self-sustaining to a point that it regenerates as fast as sunshine can bake it away.

I wish conference talks would speak to this animosity with the same clarity that past talks have given for porn – that being another harm that saturated wards and degraded relationships.

[NoahVail]

Arrakeen wrote:

Personally, I think they’re going to have to announce a huge shift in full-time missions in the near future. Hopefully making them more service and humanitarian focused with less proselyting.

For a decade or two, our ward strongly resisted contributing to the community. I wonder if missions like this could have softened those hearts.

[Author]

Posts