[Nonny]

I enjoyed hearing your story Brian. It has been interesting to follow your story (and name changes!) from FacesEast to NOM to StayLDS over the past several years. I appreciate the empathetic and tolerant tone you use in your posts.

[Nonny]

trill, I hear ya. At one point in my life I realized the control the church had and has had over my life, my decisions, my thoughts and actions. I like what valoel suggests about accepting the church on your own terms. In fact, this is exactly what I told my dh I had to do. Setting boundaries, not always saying yes, not trying to do or participate in every thing is a start. But I need to figure out how to get the church out of my head: the voices that remind me I’m not doing enough, not measuring up, not doing it “the right” way.

[Nonny]

marshnello wrote:

I’m a 57-year-old (gads! it’s hard to say that!) mom of 6, married for almost 37 yrs. (also hard to believe!), and haven’t been to church for almost 3 yrs. Many factors have led to this sad state that I find myself in. For detailed reasons, I have laid them all out in the Faces East forum. Briefly: I was raised in the church in a part-member family (my mom was the member, with a long pioneer heritage). I was always active, went to BYU at 18, got married at 20, & have spent the last 37 yrs. mostly active, but with a husband that has been inactive for more of those years than active. (BTW, we were married in the temple.) My kids range in age from 35-18, …

Welcome marshnello. Your bio up to this point looks almost like mine, except for the 18yo. Looks like we ended up in different places however. I hope you will feel some camaraderie here. Whether they are active or inactive, many people feel guilt and inadequacy. I’ll bet there are others at your ward who feel the same, but they hide it, as you probably do. I hope the people in your ward will show true Christian love and not judge you. You are OK just the way you are. (and don’t let anyone tell you differently) We are all just trying to grow.

[Nonny]

kupord maizzed wrote:

Nonny wrote:

Best of luck to you. (just get that BYU diploma in hand before making any drastic decision about the church)

Nonny! How crass.

Hey, it’s a legitimate reason to StayLDS.

[Nonny]

Welcome, trill. You are certainly welcome to see if this community fits you. It is difficult to negotiate changing beliefs without someone to talk with. Just know, you are not alone in your feelings. It is common to have these up and down shifts of belief. In case you may have heard differently: It is normal. Doubting is not a sin.

I have found that things always change, and belief is no different. I try not to get too stuck in one state of mind or another because I know down the road I will feel differently. Think of it as growth.

Best of luck to you. (just get that BYU diploma in hand before making any drastic decision about the church)

[Nonny]

Valoel wrote:

1. You have to want to be a part of the LDS Community…

2. … you have to have the patience to allow a difference between your personal beliefs and the official mythos of the Church. Somewhere in your heart, you have to be able to at least consider that story of the Church is divinely inspired and/or valuable….

I like your ideas here Valoel. They provide enough flexibility that almost anyone could fit into this framework, if they wanted to. One way I have come to feel more comfortable in a church setting is to accept the value in it for “that person.” I do not want to destroy anyone’s faith. I don’t even want to point out problem areas. Even in comments I can’t agree with, I can understand how that person can find value in that particular belief (most of the time). But I’m not confident that the reverse would be true, that my unorthodox beliefs would be accepted as providing value for me.

[Nonny]

Buffy, Sally & Valoel, you all are in a different situation than I am. The ward members around you can see that your spouses are no longer attending and that makes you stand out. It is hard to keep that a secret.

“Do you have a secret world?” I feel that I do have a secret world. It is a world of my own making. My dh, is very TBM, and I go along to not disappoint him. So my secret world is in my head, what I actually think and feel as opposed to the image I portray.

“Do people treat you differently?” Sometimes, because my reactions are not what is expected. An example is turning down callings, the bishop or counselor becomes a little more tenuous when approaching me with a potential calling.

At times I miss the credibility and acceptance I used to feel when I gave all the “right” answers. Maybe church life was easier in that way, but the guilt and depression were unfortunate side effects I no longer have to accept.

buffyvs wrote:

I have thought about the church so much. I feel like this thinking about it and experience a faith change is what makes us different than your average member. I feel like we think about it a lot

I have wondered about this too. For the past several years I have thought about issues of faith, doctrine, history, etc like an obsession. But I have gained a lot from this pondering. All the time I feel like I am getting closer to an answer, FOR ME. Not the proscribed answer by someone else.

[Nonny]

Welcome msa01. I am sorry you have received such a poor reception in your Utah ward. That sounds like the kind of ward I left in Utah 20 years ago. Every ward I have lived in since has had working mothers, evening enrichment meetings, and diverse cultures. One thing I would say, though it doesn’t seem right from a fellowshipping point of view, it does take about a year to 18 months to really feel comfortable in a new ward. At least it has for me, and we’ve moved a lot recently. I had a really bad attitude when I moved to one ward and immediately was put in the nursery. Being isolated in the nursery makes it more of a challenge to get to know people. First I got to know the parents of the little ones and the other teachers.

Hang in there. It sounds like you have mastered a lot of challenges in your life already. We’ll listen, even if that’s all we can do.

[Nonny]

Awesome, Ray. I feel my mind expanding as I think about this.

Old-Timer wrote:

(Oh, and I just want to add that pursuing godly perfection [wholeness, completion, full development] makes little sense if the underlying theology doesn’t teach that it makes a difference or is necessary. Sometimes Mormons don’t stop and realize how radical that simple concept is when viewed by the totally different perspective of Protestant theology. )

I don’t know about this last part. Many people develop moral character or feel spiritual without being Mormon. Maybe, to me, spirituality is more about being in tune with my own inner voice and then becoming attuned to the voices of those around me. That could certainly be done without the framework of the restored gospel or any theology. If I take that idea one step further though and say eventually we could become attuned to the voice of the universe, then we are back around to God and the purpose for our existence.

[Nonny]

I, too, will be off-line for a few days, but I appreciate your responses to this question so far. I sure would like to hear a wide variety of opinions on this subject, from GAs, traditional TBMs, NOMS, disaffected persons, etc. I’d like to think it is an individual decision, whether we feel part of the LDS church or not, and not dependent on an outside judgment of our testimonies.

Orson wrote:

… you could say to yourself “that is not the way I see it” as undoubtedly some members did. As time went on the general view of the church changed; those people who were “out of step” with BY at the time became “in step” with the church at a later time without changing their views. I see similar situations today. My views may not be “in step” with the church currently, but personally I think they may be in another three to five generations. I personally think it would be a shame if I felt I couldn’t be in the church today just as it would have been for the people who couldn’t accept Adam-God back in the day. This obviously isn’t a perfect corollary, BY himself stated A-G was not a required belief.

I have been in this “in step” “out of step” situation before. One example: back in the day, I could not agree with all the “donations” we had to pay especially dues to belong to the 70’s quorum. Then a few years later the fees were all consolidated into the tithing. (though this example is of policy and not doctrine) But if I point out an area I disagree with, I am labeled an “ark steadier.”

Orson wrote:

To me however, the point is still relevant – that views and doctrines do change, and the goal of the LDS doctrine (at least from the early days) is to be aligned with what is actually true (as far as can be determined).

I like the way you stated this, Orson. I hear you saying, rather than believing that the church has ALL the truth, that we are moving TOWARD the truth.

[Nonny]

Ray,

When I first read your Personal Focus piece, I could only see another checklist. I have been through many “programs”, Pursuit of Excellence, YW, etc. that have never really made a real change in my life. To me, an emphasis on perfection has previously led to discouragement and depression.

Your explanation in GDTeacher’s Intro, however, was instructive. I like the way you described personal spirituality as separate from institutional activity. Currently I am involved in activity, but I know I am not spiritual in the sense of becoming closer to Christ. And the institutional activities have not led me there either. I need to ponder what the term “spirituality” means to me, what it would look like in my life.

But I have a question for you. How do you distinguish “spirituality” from character development? It seems to me that many of your themes have to do with developing positive traits to become a better person and would improve one’s life whether they believe in God and Jesus or not.

[Nonny]

It’s nice to see you here, GDTeacher. Your perspective is similar to mine right now. I ask myself if there is a reason for me to reconnect with the teachings, and not just the church organization. If I do, will I lose the insights I have gained by stepping away? I don’t have any answers yet. I hope you will stick around and help us explore these questions.

Ray, I like your idea of exploring individual spirituality separately from institutional activity. I’ll have to consider that further.

[Nonny]

That is a good story. Thanks for sharing it.

Our SM meeting had a similar uplifting message for me. A young man told about his conversion from a destructive lifestyle to gaining a positive direction and lovely family. To me this meant – the church might have caused some serious guilt issues for me, but it worked a miracle in the life of this young man. And that is a good thing.

[Nonny]

kupord maizzed wrote:

The NOM prototype wounded soul who wanders by here or by NOM may desire not to be angry, may pray for peace, may want it all to work, but simply doesn’t know how with integrity it can. I think it is very important and loving to acknowledge the discomfort and the perceived limitations together with the good intentions of the wounded. Along with the mantra, “It can work out”, there need to be other mantras that say, “The church will survive your newfangled participation”, “You can do it your way with their language,” “You can bear your own testimony”.

It may be a Christ-like ideal that we seek, where members would accept each other at whatever level they are on: temple attending, NOM, inactive, etc. but then there is reality. When you have been in leadership meetings and heard judgments (even well-meaning) on people’s level of activity, where programs are planned with the intention to change someone’s activity, then you know that this judgment is real. I know the potential of appearing on some “list” if I downsize my activity due to this conscientious objection of which you speak.

So, how to become comfortable with a different approach to participation? This is what worked for me (so far). One thing is to become confident in my own agency and accountability for the choices I make. When I became aware that it was my agency and not the church’s then I was able to set boundaries and not feel guilty. Then it doesn’t matter what someone else thinks. Another change of thinking is to be charitable in my relationships. If someone says they miss me, I believe it at face value. I try not to look for hidden motives for others’ behaviors towards me. “It can work out” will likely become true, if we make choices that lead to working it out, rather than choices that breed defensiveness and anger. Go slow is also a good mantra. YMMV, recognizing that I am one who is comfortable with a background level of participation.

[Nonny]

Thank you Valoel, for making this question available for discussion.

I always try to look at questions from several different angles, rather than accept opinions at face value. This is the reason I want to keep a presence in each forum. NOM gives me support and validation for choosing to NOT believe, to doubt, to question. I think StayLDS will give me support for finding a different WAY to believe. That is the point I am at in my journey. Some days I want to leave the church and never return, but there is a tiny spark in my soul that says, maybe there is another way. At this moment I am choosing to blow on that spark and see if it ignites something.

[Author]

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