[NonTraditionalMom]

Thank you for understanding and acknowledging my concerns. I do hope that my original post didn’t come off as attacking in any way. I felt like this was the safest place to express my thoughts, and I truly appreciate your insights. We often talk about the MBTI, and I think this is where my very high NF tendencies show the most. It’s all about feelings for me.

For me, the general attitudes of certain groups felt something like this:

Anti (or commenters on the SL Trib article): “See! We told you! Your church is a fraud! You didn’t know? Well, you’ve been brainwashed/you’re an idiot.”

Progressive Mormons: “Yay! Transparency! You didn’t know? Well, you haven’t been thinking critically/doing your research.”

TBM: “See, we’re not hiding anything. You didn’t know? Well, we did tell you. It’s not our fault if you didn’t read that article in the Ensign that we printed before you were born. And if you’re still questioning, that’s because you lack faith.”

I realize, of course, that there not as many people who actually think exactly this way as it sometimes seems. I guess that’s why I wanted to bring it up– because I am one of those people who falls outside any of those trains of thought. What I need to hear right now is something like, “You didn’t know? I’m sorry. It’s confusing, isn’t it? It’s okay to ask about it, and it’s okay to doubt. There is nothing wrong with you.” And I do hear that message from this site, and I appreciate it. Thanks.

[NonTraditionalMom]

For me, there are big differences between events being interpreted differently by different witnesses and events whose witnesses fail to corroborate the event at all.

Here’s a non-church example:

On Friday, May 15, my son had a birthday party at our house. My husband and I were there, along with my son and his friends. We served pizza, cake, and ice cream. These are historical facts. Everyone at the party had a different experience, so would probably tell about the party differently. My husband would probably complain that there were kids running around everywhere. I would probably talk about all of the prep-work and the expense. My son would talk about his presents. And his friends would talk about the games or food or whatever they enjoyed the most. In each of our interpretations, though, there would be some common elements: a party, my son’s birthday, our house, food. Even where all of our accounts would differ, each account could be used to verify that there was, indeed, a party.

My problem is that some of the historical accounts of church history do not contain those common elements that support the event. Do you see what I mean?

I’m not saying that I have to have a 100% clear picture of proof; I recognize that faith is key in developing and maintaining a testimony. I guess what I find so disappointing and frustrating is that it seems like the history actually is more disproving of the narrative than it is proving.

You know, I really appreciate the sentiments that I have to find my own truth, follow my own conscience, listen to the spirit for myself, etc, but can I just say for a second how extremely difficult that is for me? I have been taught to follow and respect authority for my entire life, and I’ve done a pretty good job of staying in line. When I find out that the line isn’t even a line, I don’t feel like I can jump to a new philosophy so easily. I don’t love it, and I’m not having a good time with all of the nuances. I feel frustrated and confused, like I have some form of spiritual vertigo. I know everyone talks about how you have to get out of the whole black-and-white mentality and learn to enjoy the mystery, but I am just not there. I’m just spiritually exhausted, and I just want something to make sense. Sorry. /end temper tantrum./

[NonTraditionalMom]

I definitely agree that some people will do really well with this and others will struggle, as with every program in the church.

DarkJedi wrote:

YFor some parents and leaders that would lead to a more controlling/shaming/guilt driven aspect of the relationship. Again, that’s going to work for some and not for others – and some are going to feel trapped by it.

Old-Timer wrote:

That is the danger, DJ – but the leaders and parents who prone to do that would be doing it regardless, while those who aren’t, won’t.

I guess I am concerned that those who would be doing it regardless are now going to have a church-sanctioned program to back them up. Is this going to become yet another measure by which we judge each other?

This discussion has been very interesting, and I’ve thought of a few questions. I didn’t serve a mission myself, so I’m curious, especially for those who mentioned struggling with re-entry, would a program like My Plan have helped? Or are there certain things, like language and cultural differences, that are just going to be difficult because that’s what comes from separating yourself from your known world for two years? In other words, is not having a plan in place a major issue?

On that note, several of you mentioned the huge RM attrition rate. My question, then, is the lack of a plan the thing (or one of the major things) causing RM’s to lose their faith or leave the church? Is introducing this kind of program going to help the RM’s in the way they need help?

It will be very interesting to see how the church unfolds and uses the program. I would be much more inclined to feel positively about it if the missionary is given autonomy to explore choices and ideas (for example, I think career counseling and personality type activities would be fantastic) as well as with whom to share the plan. I think setting goals and being accountable for those goals is very important, but the person making the plan is the one who needs to have complete control over the timeline and accountability of those goals. In my experience, the church struggles a bit with the concept of autonomy.

[NonTraditionalMom]

I’m so glad you brought this up; I’ve been thinking along the same lines lately. I have been struggling to define what “feeling the Spirit” actually is. I understand the warm, peaceful feeling of confirmation that I equate with the ideas of resonating or ringing true, but it’s the other functions of the Spirit, particularly the guiding or warning, that I am not sure about.

There are two very specific instances from my life where I really was being extremely obedient, but didn’t receive the guidance from the spirit that I expected. In the first case, some abuse happened in my home to one of my children. I was very active and obedient at the time and, in fact, was attending the temple during one of the instances of abuse. I have often wondered where the warning was, or why neither my priesthood-holding DH nor myself ever had any idea that something like this was happening in our home until well after the fact. Where was that spirit of warning to protect our innocent child and us? When I look back on that time, I can honestly say that there was nothing in my life that would have prevented the spirit from helping us, even that we were actively seeking spiritual guidance in our lives. And while I don’t think there is anyone in this crowd who believes that abuse could be warranted as some kind of lesson, please just don’t go there.

The second instance happened a few years ago when DH and I were trying to decide whether or not to have another baby. I fasted and prayed on my own, and I felt an overwhelming surety that I was supposed to have another child. When DH and I went to the temple with the question, I felt what I would describe as a very strong sense of the spirit the whole time– even the name of the person I was doing work for was a name we had discussed as one we liked for a daughter. I was absolutely sure that the answer was yes. After the session, however, my DH expressed a completely different experience. He was sure that our family was complete as it was, and his very clear answer was no. Ultimately, we decided not to have any more children, and although I can now see the wisdom in that decision, I am still confused at my experience in the temple. Did I just want to have another baby and sought confirmation where I could find it? Did I have a spiritual experience, but since DH is the priesthood holder, did his experience trump mine? Was the spirit just messing with me, or was that the spirit at all? Again, I was in the very obedient, TBM camp at the time.

DarkJedi wrote:

I still doubt and still can’t usually tell what is Spirit and what is emotion.

Exactly. I am especially frustrated with that very thin line between spiritual and emotional feelings. The last time I attended the temple, I left feeling so frustrated that there was so much emotion in one of the new videos, especially from Peter. It felt manipulative to me, like they were trying to get me to cry because then I’d think I felt the spirit.

I’ve heard someone talk about separating the two, and she said something to the effect of now that she can truly recognize the spirit, it is rarely an emotional experience.

[NonTraditionalMom]

Roadrunner wrote:

f) don’t marry someone you’re not attracted to and don’t have kids because that’s what you think the church or your family want.

And don’t marry someone or have children because you think it will “fix” you.

[NonTraditionalMom]

I think these are absolutely excellent ideas. I guess I am just struggling with the disconnect that comes between talk and action. If these notes were given in my ward council, I don’t think anyone would disagree. When it comes to actually not judging, actually not trying to solve the problem, actually allowing a place for those with struggles and doubts… I’m not quite as optimistic. Then again, maybe that’s me being judgmental.

[NonTraditionalMom]

amateurparent wrote:

SilentDawning:

It’s okay to say, “I don’t know. I have wondered that myself. What do you think? “

Then listen.

This. Kids are smart, and sometimes I think they just need a sounding board for their thoughts. Even if your DD has formulated an opinion, I would guess that it’s still soft, and the fact that she is coming to you to discuss what she thinks means that she respects your opinions. When I was a teenager, I went to my dad with questions, and he was pretty quick to respond with a firm hand. That experience taught me not to ask questions, and if I did, don’t trust them with my dad. How you handle your conversations with her now really will affect her faith in the future– not what you say as much as how you say it, and how open you are to letting her explore and figure things out on her own.

[NonTraditionalMom]

nibbler wrote:

Does our overall impression of a ward depend on which side of the “average” ward member we fall on?

I think this is a very interesting point. Part of what draws us into the culture of a ward is the feeling of acceptance and connection we feel with the people around us. If there are a lot of people like us, it will be easier to find a place where we fit in and find commonalities. I think this applies to all sorts of statuses and states of mind. For example, I match my ward’s average physically and economically, but I definitely feel out of the group in my political/social viewpoints and my struggle with black and white thinking.

I have always hated the concept of teaching to the ideal. While I understand the need for a model to strive toward, I just feel like putting the ideal family/person on a pedestal is individually harmful. I have serious struggles with perfectionism and feelings of unworthiness which I think stem from the idea that if I just try hard enough, I’ll finally be that perfect wife/mom/ward member/woman. The ideal is impossible to attain and, at least for me, drives us away from God’s grace. Part of my faith journey is learning to let go of the ideal and just being enough for who I am, where I am.

amateurparent wrote:

She is our problem at church. People want to treat her like she is mentally retarded. I had someone ask if we had talked with her about children and maybe having something permanently done to prevent them. She is so different from the average girl in our ward. She is shunned by the other girls and the parents.

What?! Just… what??!!!! What is wrong with people?!

This is what I mean about the problems with only teaching the ideal. Somehow, your ward has gotten the idea that since your DD doesn’t fit their ideal, it’s okay for them to shun her. I hate that. I hate that there are people who feel completely justified in excluding someone because they don’t match the model.

I am glad that your DD does have places like school where she is acknowledged and respected. She sounds like an incredible person.

[NonTraditionalMom]

Hi NP, and welcome! I feel like you are a younger version of myself, and I wish I had your wisdom and foresight. I think you are very wise to be thinking deeply about these issues now as you’re looking forward to building your life.

As a woman, I will say that the issues in the temple definitely spurred my FC. Unlike you, I didn’t know about anything ahead of time, and although I noticed a few little discrepancies when I first attended, it wasn’t until 15 years of faithful attendance that the differences between men and women were suddenly glaringly obvious. And once you notice, you can’t un-notice. Although it’s true that the word “hate” is never spoken, I can certainly echo that feeling. I have left the temple, where I went with the explicit desire to gain some peace and understanding, feeling completely confused and unworthy. While I am nowhere near reconciled in my thoughts about this, I must conclude that this is division is man-made, and that the God I worship loves me as fully and equally as he does my husband and sons. Otherwise, like Hawk said, it’s not worth it. The last time I attended, I felt very emotionally manipulated, so that didn’t really help the situation. I wish I had some super helpful advice, but I’m just not there.

Regarding your family, oh, I can relate!! Every day, multiple times a day, I repeat the mantra: “I am the captain of my own ship” (quoting SD, I think), but I still feel very much under the control of my family. One of these days, I’ll have the courage to tell my dad that I just don’t agree with him and that my exemplary life is not what he thinks it is, and I’ll feel his disappointment and perhaps fury, and it will hurt. And then we’ll move forward. It sounds great writing it out! I guess what I’m saying is that I completely understand the overwhelming need to conform to their wishes and not let anyone down. This is your life, though. I feel like you really will feel the freedom and ability to pursue your true spiritual path when you allow yourself to make decisions based on what you feel is right. Hang in there!

[NonTraditionalMom]

We saw it on Monday night, and I can’t stop thinking (and crying) about it. So good, and so applicable! I agree with SD– go see it!

DH thinks it should win an Oscar, and that I should be “Joy” for Halloween.

[NonTraditionalMom]

Why go? I have a lot of cute dresses. Just kidding.

Really, sometimes I wonder why I go. Sometimes I sit and count down the minutes until I can go home. Sometimes I go because I don’t want to end up on the ward’s watch list. Sometimes I just go out of habit.

I was talking to a good friend the other night, and she mentioned the weekly renewal and re-commitment she tries to have when she prepares to take the sacrament. Although I’ve always known that this is one of the purposes of the sacrament and of weekly church attendance, I haven’t thought about it in that way for a long time. She spoke of more of an internal checking in, and I really like that idea– thinking about my week and ways I can better align myself to being more Christlike. I’m going to try that this week and see if it helps.

One of my kids throws a huge fit every Sunday morning, and sometimes, most of the time, I think we’d both be better off just staying home.

[NonTraditionalMom]

Oh, AP, I felt such an ache reading about how your DD is being treated, for both of you. Those teenage years are such tender times, and I don’t think there is anything worse than seeing your child be hurt. It isn’t fair and it isn’t right, no matter what the excuse. Virtual hugs from me.

I agree with others here– maybe a break would help. And I think giving yourself permission to take that break without guilt will be extremely beneficial. Give yourself a chance to clear your head and think about what you really want and need.

[NonTraditionalMom]

Deseret Book is one of the aspects of the church that make me extremely uncomfortable. For me, it isn’t just the GA books, but the overall marketing to church members by the church for profit. Yes, DB is a for-profit company, as are several other church-owned businesses. At one point, it occurred to me that there are marketing people from DB who watch conference with notebooks in hand and rapt attention, not for any personal messages, but to glean the quotable gems and turn them into merchandise. Then that merchandise is heavily marketed to the members and DB collects the profit.

Do other religions have their own retailers? I have a friend who owns a Christian-themed store, but the profits from her sales go back to her. Anything she donates to her church is at her discretion.

[NonTraditionalMom]

Ugh. Why does it feel like Public Relations is running this? If there were problems in Boise, just freaking say that there were problems in Boise.

[NonTraditionalMom]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

Well what happens if they don’t know what they are talking about to begin with, is there any way within this system of, “Follow the leaders no matter what” to rectify the situation in that case (Matthew 15:14)?

I was watching a rerun of The West Wing the other night, and one of the characters said something about how the founding fathers knew that power would corrupt, so they set up a system of checks and balances to keep that corruption in check. I’m not saying that the US government is a model of morality or anything, but it did make me think about the system in the church. Do we have any kind of check and balances in the church?

It’s kind of a scary logic to say that I’m right because I said I’m right.

[Author]

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