[Old-Timer]

I view it as a revealed account of actual people – a (loose) “translation” of an actual record that might or might not have been recorded on the plates Joseph used as the catalyst for the translation. I don’t care one whit if the plates he used actually were an accurate historical record, just as I don’t care one whit if the Book of Abraham is an actual translation of the writing that inspired it. I believe he believed it (that it wasn’t a fraud), and I am convinced that it is inspired.

(My mind wanders all the time when I am reading things, and some of my greatest and most inspired insights come almost as fully developed paragraphs that have little or nothing to do with the text I am reading. If that is true for me, I can understand and accept it happening in a more voluminous way for Joseph, whether or not the record he translated was on the plates that served as his prop or on other plates thousands of miles away and buried deep in the earth. I just don’t care, because I love the book itself so much.)

I also think it is and has been incredibly misunderstood. Ironically, I think one of the absolute strongest arguments for its validity is that it was so misunderstood by the early Church – and even by Joseph himself. If it had been a deliberate fraud, a typical author would have understood it better than Joseph did – wouldn’t have made cultural assumptions that simply didn’t fit the actual book. (For example, K Rowling and Stephanie Myers know exactly what they were creating and can talk in minute detail about their books. George Lucas is the same way with Star Wars.) There are lots of instances, however, where Joseph (and others of his day) made all kinds of assumptions about the record that simply aren’t justified by a careful parsing of the record itself. The book is abso-freakin-lutely complicated and intricate and astoundingly complex – and Joseph seemed to be almost oblivious to that fact. That, imo, is amazing – and a testimony that it didn’t originate from within his own mind.

[Old-Timer]

Fwiw, I comment at a number of very different sites (no surprise there – *grin*), and I spend more time on one or another sometimes depending on my mood. I want this site to take more and more of my blogging time as it progresses, because I believe deeply in the core mission of dealing with “issues” and remaining faithful and active in the Church.

I understand intellectually the emotions that drive much of the discussion on NOM and Open Mormon and FLAK and other sites, but I just don’t get anything out of most of the discussions (I don’t learn anything from them) – and my contributions wouldn’t be appreciated or accepted much due to assumptions about my faithfulness. I understand that, so I spend my commenting capital in places where I feel I can contribute in a meaningful way and also where I can learn from others.

[Old-Timer]

Gail, you might be interested in two things I wrote a while ago:

A “Fresh View”of Repentance (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/01/rethinking-repentance.html)

More Thoughts on Repentance (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/06/more-thoughts-on-repentance.html)

[Old-Timer]

My wife and I were raised in Utah County. Since our marriage, we have lived in UT, MA, AL, UT (again) and OH. We have been in the greater Cincinnati area for 11 years – and we LOVE it. We have enjoyed everywhere we have lived (except for UT the second time, but that was due to my unemployment), but our ward now is awesome.

We are heavily involved in the church, but, in general, living in an area where you are needed (where the ward doesn’t have dozens and dozens of other alternatives) leads to leaders who tend to be more willing to accept whatever you are willing to give. Now, they might try to ask you to accept multiple callings, but they tend to understand and accept a “No thanks, I’ll take one,” response when they really need you.

Having said that, honestly, I think the biggest factor is the personality and perspective of the bishop or branch president. That single thing tends to influence the overall spirit of a ward as much as anything else, in my experience. If you are able to choose where you want to live, let me know. I’ll contact you outside this forum and do my best to convince you to move to our ward.

[Old-Timer]

Monkey, for what it’s worth, there is nothing in the temple recommend that requires one to believe that God has a body of flesh and bones. NOTHING. The question simply is if you believe in Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Nothing more. If your Bishop is saying what you say he is, he is wrong. If there’s more to it than that, and his focus is a way to address that, he might be right. However, the wording in your post is not in harmony with the wording of the questions and the counsel of the Brethren.

I don’t know your Stake President, and I don’t know your ward and Bishop, but if you really, really want to attend the temple (and feel comfortable answering the questions as they actually are worded), I would encourage you to talk with your Stake President about it. Be calm and loving and sincere – focusing strictly on how you have re-built your faith and want to have the spirit of the temple in your life as you continue to keep rebuilding it. If you are at peace with your current situation, ignore what I just said. *grin*

[Old-Timer]

That’s my vision and hope for this site, as well.

I know there is a place for those who have been exposed to all of the “issues” but remain faithful anyway, and I want to be able to contribute to that community. I respect what NOM does, and I am so glad it is available, but it’s not for me. At the core, I am a faithful Mormon who wants association with the Church AND deeper understanding of and appreciation for the theology. I want to maintain and develop my testimony in full light of the issues, and I have found my testimony strengthened as I have addressed the issues.

I want that to continue, and I hope this is the place – so to speak.

[Old-Timer]

weissadler,

I probably will post the full account here separately as we build a section about our own journeys to find peace and activity in the Church despite exposure to everything you mention, but fwiw, the following are excerpts from something I wrote a while ago on Mormon Matters:

Quote:

I have never believed in the certainty that (another writer) describes prior to his own dark night, so I have never felt abandoned by its loss. My “dark night” appears “light” to me, because I have never believed I see things clearly and completely. I just see them as clearly as I am capable of seeing them – which I understand and accept as “through a glass, darkly”. I have never been shaken by doubt of detail, because my testimony has never been founded on certainty of detail.

I am certain of many things, but those things are principles – not details. Radical changes in policy and even “doctrine” don’t shake me, since I have never based my testimony on those things. I believe firmly and deeply in the PRINCIPLES of ongoing-revelation and charity exercised in how I must view others – that what I believe now differs from what I believed as a youth and young adult – that what I believe now differs from what I will believe in the future – that what I believe now differs from what others believe now. I believe that this charity God gave me as a youth will not fail me, even as prophecies and tongues and knowledge fail all around me.

[Old-Timer]

My father said something once when I was very young that burned into my soul:

Quote:

This is my church. Nobody and nothing can take it away from me. It’s mine.

He was not an educated man by any stretch of the imagination, but he was a very wise, good man. I hope this forum strengthens that feeling in all who participate.

[Old-Timer]

Quote:

Richard Bushman said there are people who want to believe, and they do. Maybe the most important thing is not whether it’s true, but what we want to believe and how we want to live our life.

I have said elsewhere that I have made a conscious decision to pursue that which brings me joy. That is the Church and the Gospel.

I also realize that I can construct a reasonable intellectual argument for or against anything. I mean that fully. If I decide to construct an argument that casts the Church negatively, I can do so; if I want to cast the Church positively, no matter the issue, I can do so. Therefore, I have made a conscious decision to look actively and passionately for a way to reconcile difficulties and remain faithful.

In college, as part of my research on Manifest Destiny, I read just about every anti-Mormon writing of the 19th Century. I took some classes at a local divinity school – not exactly a bastion of extreme conservatism or champion of Mormonism. After graduation, I lived in the Deep South for a few years. I am probably as well-versed in anti-Mormon rhetoric as most, so my statement in the last paragraph is not stated carelessly. I also, however, understand that I can learn MUCH about the Gospel of Jesus Christ even from classic anti-Mormon preachers and denominations. Some of the most profound spiritual insights I have received have come by hearing something I already believed phrased differently by someone who believes I am headed straight for Hell and would dance in the streets if Mormonism was eliminated completely – simply hearing it from a different perspective I had never considered previously.

That, in my mind, is the key – truly internalizing and trying to live the Articles of Faith and the core principles of the Gospel, especially developing the characteristics of godliness outlined as the pathway to perfection in the Sermon on the Mount. I have had more truly spiritual experiences this year, as I have intentionally and purposefully pursued that objective, than I had in the previous twenty years of my life – including in the various leadership callings I have had in the Church.

What is a spiritual experience? It is an experience that makes my spirit grow – that brings me closer to the Father and the Son by making me more like them.

[Old-Timer]

Hawk, I am the exact same way with my Patriarchal Blessing. I describe it slightly differently just about every time I talk about it, because I focus on whatever part is weighing on my mind at the time.

[Old-Timer]

Sally,

I started something this year that has been wonderful! I really wish I had done so many years ago, since, even though I have been active my entire life, I feel like I have grown more this year than perhaps in the 21 other years combined since my mission.

If you are interested, read the following post on my personal blog – then read any of the ones under the “Resolutions” category in the archives:

http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/01/new-years-resolution.html

[Old-Timer]

Short answer: I have come to believe that Joseph learned as he grew, and that he came to see polygamy very differently than Brigham did. I look at the dynastic and communal sealing nature of his situation and the literal “multiple wives of one husband with lots and lots of kids” nature of what came to be after the martyrdom, and I see two very different things for two very different times.

I don’t think the “raise up seed unto me” concept of Jacob 2 deals with number of kids, but I do think it deals with posterity forged in the furnace of affliction. It also created, in a very real way, a new and unique ethnicity – and I think that is not insignificant.

Finally, I think the practice of polygamy burned into their souls the concept of eternal marriage and communal unity in the hereafter that is a bit different than understood by the world.

[Old-Timer]

Accepting uncertainty and the possibility of faithful people in the Church disagreeing, even on some very fundamental and foundational things. Once I accepted that, reconciliation and acceptance became an individual path from which others’ biases and views didn’t matter nearly as much as they do for others.

Realizing that there are reasonable intellectual arguments for any issue on both sides – that every single “issue” can be addressed from a faithful perspective just as legitimately as from a perspective of disbelief. I mean that in complete seriousness. Reaching that realization freed me to construct the intellectual and emotional argument I want to make to pursue what I desire to pursue – to “let that desire work within (me)” and produce the fruits on which I want to feast.

I found that freedom at a young age, when I didn’t have to struggle nearly as much as those who are rocked by difficulty with uncertainty as adults. I never built absolutes that shook my faith when I realized they really weren’t absolutes. I am grateful for that, but I also believe the underlying foundation is the same.

[Old-Timer]

I just know that I don’t remember detail very well – especially as time passes. I am a “big picture guy”. I remember the feeling and the general experience, and, because of that, I tend to imbue my current perceptions and understanding into past events – since it all blurs in my mind after a while.

I think I understand how details would be added as understanding came, since I see much of myself in what I know of the accounts. I really can relate on a very personal level. Those whose memories work differently would have a much harder time reconciling something they never experience personally. I understand that, but I think the important thing for them is to realize that there are those whose personalities in this regard can validate (or add a degree of validity) to the First Vision accounts.

[Old-Timer]

My baseline hope is nothing more than that this will be a safe place to discuss faithfulness for those who don’t know – for whatever reason. I hope it will not be a vent and gripe site, even as honest concerns and issues are discussed. I hope those who are here really want to find a way to stay (at the very least) or believe again (at the very most) – even if certainty never materializes.

I have accepted uncertainty and the relative darkness of my own glass, even as there are lots of things I am comfortable saying I know for myself. I find real joy as an active LDS, and I have found that truly embracing uncertainty can bring a better understanding of FAITH than any feeling of absolute certainty that never knows faith – and that particular truth has made me free in many compelling and exciting and wonderful ways. I now believe because I have made a conscious decision to believe – and that decision has brought me areas where I feel comfortable saying I know for myself – not for anyone else. I want a site where people understand that faith is a choice – that it really is possible to hope for things not seen and pursue joy and growth and spiritual development within a theology that maximizes those things – even when doctrinal details are fuzzy and confusing and difficult to reconcile. I hope for a site where people want to become more than they want to know – even as they want to know and want to learn to reconcile intellectual concerns.

I hope for a site where my path is valued and accepted as legitimate – where people at least can accept that my outcome is real and possible for those who embrace uncertainty and learn to walk in the light of relative darkness. I don’t want a site where everyone else is like me or is where I am, but I hope for a site where everyone wants the joy and peace I have found – or, more accurately, whatever version of it will work for them.

[Author]

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