[Only Love]

No advice but I just want to say that you are SOO not the only one who feels that way. I feel the same way in my ward in the Midwest. Church tends to lead me to feeling down because it highlights what a misfit I am now. And I don’t feel safe speaking up so I usually stay quiet and that makes me feel even more isolated. I can imagine BYU would be super hard. I’m so sorry you are experiencing that. Sending understanding and hugs to you, Friend ♥️

[Only Love]

Roy wrote:

Putting on my best armchair psychiatrist hat…

Acceptance is our greatest desire, rejection is our biggest fear. When a TBM goes to church they feel acceptance and belonging. When beefster goes to church there is muted rejection. There is the ever present fear of rejection and the belief that if they only knew what is inside your head, they would turn their backs. That, IMO, is draining.

One of the reasons I come here to stayLDS is for acceptance. I feel understood, valued, and validated. It becomes the place where I can recharge my batteries and know that I am not crazy and I am not alone. Then I step forward and do the hard work of interacting with my religious community because I believe that it is worth it. This is the heritage that my ancestors passed down to me. There is much good there and I want my children and grandchildren to have access to that good. We talk about trading up. If I were to walk away from the church community, what would I replace it with?

Thank you for this, Roy. It explains so well how I often feel at church these days. It made me feel a little less alone to read this.

[Only Love]

Old Timer wrote:

Probably not a great idea.

Instead, have them sing “Swallow the Prophet” whenever they sing about Jonah. 😆

Ha ha! I’m highly tempted to do that!

[Only Love]

Thank you for your creative verses! That gave me a good laugh!

Do you think my kids’ primary teachers will be mad at me if they start singing these in primary?!

[Only Love]

I like that! What beautiful questions! I’m not sure how exactly temple recommend interviews and stuff would work, but I think this is very much the direction we need to go to become more god-like.

It’s a tough balance… I hate the judgemental attitudes our focus on worthiness facilitates (even the word worthy bugs me… I know it’s not supposed to mean worth but it sure sounds similar.) On the other hand, I know when I started at BYU I was so excited to join fellow students who didn’t do drugs, have sex, etc. That was so different from my high school and I craved that kind of an environment.

Is it possible to create a place (school/ward/whatever) with certain outward standards and yet no self-righteous judgement?

[Only Love]

I want to say thank you again to each of you who shared thoughts and resources with me. I used ideas from every single one of you. Combining all of our wisdom and love, I think it turned out beautifully and many, many people thanked me for it. You all have so much pure goodness to offer. Thank you for sharing it.

[Only Love]

Thank you, everyone, for these awesome ideas!

[Only Love]

Roy wrote:

My initial impression is that Jesus was the master at ministering to the marginalized. He has asked us to “feed his sheep”.

So true! Thanks, Roy!

dande48 wrote:

One of my favorite conference talks: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng” class=”bbcode_url”>https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng

Yes! Such a fabulous talk! I’m going to go read it again! Thanks, dande!

[Only Love]

Heber13 wrote:

Old Timer wrote:

I think the essay would be a good way to frame either DJ’s quotes or my comment, as well.

Thanks for these. I was told to pick a topic, and pray for inspiration. I wanted to do the essay, not be controversial, but to be honest…that was in the Ensign and my son and I discussed it this week…he hadn’t heard much about it before (he is 15) and didn’t know how to talk to kids at school about it.

It was what I wanted to go with.

But..after praying…the thought came to me I would be doing a disservice to the priesthood body if we did not talk about Motherhood.

But having the essays in mind…I shall switch to another essay topic:

Mother in Heaven

Quote:

Susa Young Gates, a prominent leader in the Church, wrote in 1920 that Joseph Smith’s visions and teachings revealed the truth that “the divine Mother, [is] side by side with the divine Father.” And in “The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” issued in 1995, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles declared, “Each [person] is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny.”

Perhaps there are ways I can tie into how we serve and minister to our mothers, wives, and women in our lives, not in telestial or terrestrial ways, but celestial as the other quotes talked about true ministry and service.

How did your lesson go, Heber13? (Sorry, I just saw this thread for the first time.) I LOVE that you decided to teach on this! I don’t know about your ward, but my ward very rarely talks about anything “controversial” (still don’t understand why Heavenly Mother is treated as controversial, but whatever) and I have been nervous as I have included Her in several of my Relief Society lessons so I would be very interested to hear what your experience was.

Old Timer wrote:

My two cents:

We serve women best by not assuming we know how to serve “women” (plural) best. We serve each woman best by asking her how she wants to be served.

We serve women best by helping each woman be whomever she wants to be as an individual – not whom we want her to be.

We serve women best by seeing them as equals in every way and by being equal partners in word and deed.

We serve women best by accepting their adaptations of the generalized roles in the Proclamation to the World to fit their own situations and not pigeon-holing them into generalized stereotypes.

We serve women best by understanding that the root of “virtue” is “strength” (as described in Proverbs) – and by not hindering their development of any strength they want to gain.

We serve women best by not putting them on stereotyped pedestals that only deepen their sense of failure when they can’t live up to the accompanying expectations of perfection.

We serve women best by not patronizing them in any way, including accepting that we might be wrong in our assumptions of how to serve them best.

We serve women best by sharing in (or even doing) all of the traditional domestic duties, so they don’t carry the entire burden on their own.

In short, we serve women best the same way we serve men best. We accept and serve them as themselves, unconditionally in word and deed.

:clap: Yes! This is well-written. Thanks, Old Timer.

[Only Love]

AmyJ wrote:

Not yet, not really. It isn’t a part of her narrative. We talk about the cultural origins of sexism in history, and some of how we see it in the church, but mostly we are talking over her head to each other. She and I watched “Little Women” last weekend, and I pointed out that women’s rights have come a long way since then since we can vote, we can write books under our own names, we can get jobs on our own merits. She did some head nodding, so something theoretically got through.

In my home, my husband stays at home and takes care of our children because he is the most qualified to do so (seriously, he makes AMAZING food!) and it fits our circumstances the best. My husband and I talk about the cultural divide between priesthood holders and R.S., but in our home it is a short gap. Our focus is on providing, presiding, and nurturing our children – and our efforts go towards those goals. In broad strokes, I may be the one who goes to work to provide for us, but my husband provides the structure that the children need. My husband may preside over meetings in our family, but in some things I have the distance and vision to see what the next steps are. There are times that I am not very nurturing and my husband steps in.

Thanks, Amy. I love that example of working together as equal partners.

hawkgrrrl wrote:

This isn’t really a great mantra I have, but it’s one I have anyway: “The one who writes the checks makes the decisions.” First of all, it’s kind of a might makes right way to look at things, but it does keep my perspective a bit in some important ways. When Benson gave his infamous talk to the “Mothers in Zion,” urging them to quit their jobs and go back to the kitchen, er, home, this mantra began as an embryonic seed in the back of my mind. Maybe that was the Spirit whispering that I needed to make and own my own choices (which also happened). The mantra helps me in a bunch of ways:

1) it reminds me that if you want to have control over your life you have to have financial independence.

2) it’s a good reminder that the people who have to live with the decisions have to be the ones making the choices. Other people can have opinions and make judgments, but they aren’t the ones living with those choices, so their opinions are just that. They aren’t the ones living my life. I have to make the best decisions for me.

3) in business, sometimes we get this arrogant idea that we create a product or service, and “take it or leave it.” But the reality is that customers will buy what they like. If what we are selling isn’t what is in demand, if people aren’t buying what we sell, we need the humility to understand that it’s not working for people. Our solutions are not helpful. We need to rework them. I’d love for the church and its members to get that dose of humility once in a while. Men (and I hope women) are that they might have joy. Part of joy is having palatable choices for how to live your life.

Thanks, hawkgrrl. I wholeheartedly agree that we each need to feel free to make our own decisions! I’ve come to reject the notion that every mom should stay home with her kids. For some that is a good fit and for others it is not. I believe that pressuring that as a proof of righteousness leads to a dangerous epidemic of depression and other issues. So I am totally with you – I think that is an important principle in life – people need to feel free to choose for themselves! (Hmm… that sounds awfully similar to what we fought for in the premortal world)

But it has been my experience that a person can have decision making power without being the one making the money. Right now I choose to stay home with my young children, but my husband and I both very much think of the money he makes as “our money” and we both control it equally. I think a lot depends on the attitudes of the people involved. But really that is further proof that women (and everyone) need to be able to make that choice for themselves.

Roadrunner wrote:

I don’t feel the sexism and misogyny were a huge stumbling block for them because my wife and I both tried to call it out and explain it when we saw it. The fact that they could identify something unfair and not attribute it to God or some inherent inferiority helped. I tried to be as open as possible with them regarding church shortcomings, including in regards to equality. It may have worked well (too well??) – one of them attends church rarely, the other is a registered Democrat but will attend BYU, where Democrats are an endangered species.

Thanks, Roadrunner. I think it is so key that you taught them not to see the sexism as coming from God. That’s a gift I want to give my kids.

dande48 wrote:

hawkgrrrl wrote:

This isn’t really a great mantra I have, but it’s one I have anyway: “The one who writes the checks makes the decisions.”

I agree with pretty much all of the points you made. I think it’s great if both spouses can and choose to work. It leads to great financial stability. It means that if something happened to one (death, divorce) the other will be okay. And it would be ABSOLUTELY awful to be financially tied to an abuser. Like you said, with business, I think we’d all be better off treating our spouses (and our Church membership) like our #1 customers. I hate it that members are treated as if they have to stick around, because of an obligation. Same with marriages. Both partners should do all they can to make sure their union is one they both want to be in. I hate to feel controlled. I think most people do.

My gut feeling is that the mantra “The one who writes the checks makes the rules”, while applying very well to business and politics, isn’t very healthy for a marriage. Even when both spouses are working, one will always make more than the other. A spouse shouldn’t feel inferior because they make less than the other, or even none at all. And likewise, a spouse shouldn’t feel superior for “making more cheddar”. They should be equal partners, striving for the well-being and happiness of one another. Income is too often equated with power and (wrongly) with worth. But in marriage of all places, it shouldn’t be.

I agree, dande48.

And nice comic… What the heck is it with the women being expected to do all the cooking for ward activities?

SamBee wrote:

I’ve heard conflicting views on this. A case against is that certain wards seem to have a Stepford Wife type thing going on even among the YW, and they will bully girls for being different.

But that happens elsewhere.

Pluses

+ It is a community in a world where communities are being killed off.

+ They will learn public speaking (a very useful skill)

+ Girls are taught to avoid promiscuity and look beyond sex.

+ A positive role for family.

Minuses

– Gender roles.

– Interviews.

– Pressure to marry young.

– Homophobia.

I think the church teaches some worthwhile things which are declining in society. Service to others is certainly one. I love seeing our RS going into action and helping a sister in need.

Yeah, it’s definitely a mixed bag. I hope to highlight the positives and neutralize the negatives as much as possible. I hope that is the best thing for my kids.

[Only Love]

Old Timer wrote:

I confront it openly and directly, but gently and, usually, charitably.

They know I love the Church, but they also know all is not well in Zion – and that the Book of Mormon says those who think and say all is well are headed for woe.

Thanks, Old Timer. I can see that balance in your posts and that is an example to me.

[Only Love]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

I couldn’t agree more with what Curt said. The church needs feminists IN it, not out of it. Women in the church need us, and men in the church need us. And if they don’t like it, they can step over my dead body to uphold their antiquated sexist notions because that’s what it will take. I will not be silent and complicit.

:clap: I guess I need to trust that my daughters can BE the change instead of being passively influenced. And teach them to do that as well.

hawkgrrrl wrote:

This was my experience on the whole with dating non-LDS guys. The church is sexist in one way, and those guys were sexist in another way. There are good guys in both places, for sure, but as Roy pointed out, the percentage of men changing diapers is higher inside the church than outside it. I’d bet on that. The sexism we see and hear is mostly because the old farts are the only ones with the mic, and they still live in a world that ceased to exist around 1959–and thank God it did.

I think the key to your question is that YOU are raising your daughters, not the church. The church is just a backdrop, but the messages your daughters get about their self-worth and their goals in life come from your example and your values.

Thanks, hawkgrrrl. This is helpful. The way I was raised was so focused on the church being right on everything so this is an important perspective change for me. My daughters will be raised to think for themselves and to go to the Lord directly for answers!

[Only Love]

dande48 wrote:

Only Love wrote:

Dande48, I’m intrigued by this. Are you referring to in the church or outside of it? I can see that being true outside of the church, but I very much had the opposite experience in the church (and I graduated from BYU less than a decade ago.)

Both, I guess, though I’m sure it varies from person to person. Since the change in the age requirement for Sister Missionaries, it’s become almost a rite of passage for most young sisters. With college and career, there’s a sharper division. If a girl gets married at BYU, she’ll be ridiculed for “only going to get married”. I heard choosing to be a stay at home mother, called “domestic slavery”, and not having a career as being lazy. “She just stays home plays with her kid all day. Can’t she at least get a night job?”. That’s another one I heard (from another sister, not her husband, BTW). My parents just recently made my sister swear she’d finish her college education. She’s getting married soon, and they’re afriad she’s going to drop out.

It’s common, I think, for people to insist that their values and life choices be applied to everyone; and look down on those who choose differently. “She couldn’t possibly really want _____!”. “She’ll regret ______ when she’s older…”. I think it’s wrong that anyone should tell a young lady what to do or who to be, or judge her for her choices. I feel like both modern feminism and traditionalists often act like the US millitary, who point their guns at those who live differently and say “Be free, or well shoot you!”

Wow! I had no idea it had changed that much! I guess that kind of makes sense with the missionary age change and everything. Hmm… that is good to know, because I want my daughters to feel like they can be full time moms if they want! I guess the focus needs to be on following their own hearts and the Spirit.

[Only Love]

Old Timer wrote:

Yes, because strong, independent, feminists are needed.

The Church is stronger because my four daughters are in it.

Love that :clap:

How do/did you counter the sexism in the institution and encourage them to be a force for good?

[Only Love]

Roadrunner wrote:

I have one 18 year daughter who is a senior in high school and a 20 year old who is sophomore at Arizona State University. My answer is a “qualified yes” that it’s worth it raising daughters in the church. There are considerable negatives such as rampant sexism and misogyny but it’s getting better, and is not that bad and even progressive in pockets of the church. The YW leaders in my ward are excellent role models – about 75% of the leaders are highly successful professionals such as a professor at a major college, pharmacist, college basketball coach. Only one is a stay at home mom – my wife.

I’m a stay-at-home mom right now, too. I think it is great for my kids to see multiple options… I hope that they will know they can choose whatever they (and God) feel is best for them. Do you feel like the “rampant sexism and misogyny” in the church were a big stumbling block for your daughters? How did you help to neutralize that?

[Author]

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