[Orson]

I tend to agree overall with Hawkgrrrl. I guess I’m mostly through my “details” stage where I needed to dissect everything and really get down to the nuts and bolts. I believe it is good to work through these things, you have to go where your heart and mind lead you, kick out all the loose rocks and find the foundation on which you stand. From there I hope we can look for all the “details” that are in common, the things that unite us with our fellowmen (as you are obviously doing also, I love to see that). Yes, there will always be differences, but recently I find myself more interested in the common ground. I appreciate the comment “the dark ages were pretty dark” and “the world has some pretty bad patches of history.” I enjoy looking at how even the people who professed to follow Jesus during those times failed miserably in many ways to uphold his central theme. I can agree that yes, it does look like the world let go of his teachings, I can see how people call that a Great Apostasy. The most important aspect of “the restoration” to me is the intent to get back to the central teachings of Jesus – that the only hope for ‘salvation’ is if we can collectively learn to love everyone and transform the world through that power. Knowledge is power, knowledge of what works is what the priesthood is all about to me. Faith is also a big part of it, faith puts things into motion.

That’s kind of where I’m at anyway. I try to grasp the part of the message that does ring true.

Thanks for the thought provoking question. It is helpful to consider all these things.

[Orson]

kupord maizzed wrote:

Orson wrote:

I don’t feel I need to correct the church….

This is interesting. I’d like to hear more about it.

KM

I think the basis lies in realizing that human truth will always be at least partially subjective. If it is true to me, I must live by it – that doesn’t mean it will be as equally true to someone else. If I try to impose my particular views on the world then I become a bigot. To me, maturity is knowing what you don’t know, and realizing you may not know what you think you know – but nevertheless being true to what you do “know” or what seems “most true” to you at any given time. (Maturity is also becoming comfortable with paradox.) I believe in love, and I don’t feel like I’m growing in love if I need to correct someone else’s course against their will. If they’re open to suggestion then we can both share ideas with each other, that is a different situation entirely.

My thoughts for today at least…

[Orson]

Sally, thanks for sharing!

[Orson]

mcarp wrote:

It isn’t that someone holds an opinion that bothers us. It is the fact that they won’t allow for anyone else to hold a different opinion.

Bigotry: (Dictionary.com)

1. The state of mind of a bigot; obstinate and unreasoning attachment of one’s own belief and opinions, with narrow-minded intolerance of beliefs opposed to them.

Joseph Smith said: “Mormonism is truth; and every man who embraces it feels himself at liberty to embrace every truth: consequently the shackles of superstition, bigotry, ignorance, and priestcraft fall at once from his neck; and his eyes are opened to see the truth…” (2007 Teachings of Joseph Smith RS/P manual p.264)

I love this quote. If “Mormonism” is teaching anything other than the unfettered truth then it has strayed from its purpose into false doctrine. I don’t feel I need to correct the church, but as for me and my house – we will embrace the truth. This is what the church means to me, and why the “all or nothing” paradigm does not fit within my (growing) understanding of “true” Mormonism.

[Orson]

You make some very good points Monkey.

I wonder sometimes about how “truthful” we are supposed to be when someone asks “how do I look?” – especially when we think they’re as good as they’re going to get. I don’t think it’s dishonest to say “you’re beautiful” when you can argue that “everyone is beautiful.” Maybe the point is not that they need to become “more beautiful” for us to be able to say they are – but maybe the point is we need to learn to SEE the beauty that exists – for our own benefit. Maybe we need to say it even if we don’t understand it, maybe that can help us to actually see it. We all know that saying “you’re beautiful” to a Jason Alexander will not literally turn him into a Brad Pitt (I wanted to play it safe and steer clear of female imagery), but maybe it will help us see something that we may have previously missed.

Can this principle also apply to the TR interview?

[Orson]

Nice poem!

KM, I don’t think you’re as far off our mission as you may think. I like to see one of the fruits of our efforts as learning “not to worry about other people’s definitions.” Maybe people feel good about being in the church and express that as believing IN the church. Maybe others express it as you did “to love the church in a new way.” I really like that phrasing, I have said very similar things myself. I have tended toward “becoming compatible again with full activity” that certainly doesn’t put me back into an absolutist mindset. I always took “believing again” as with the added “in a new way” for granted I guess. I like to think we can rise above the definitions, and just be happy, share love, serve, and everything else you have proposed. Some of us may want to be more “fully” active than others, I don’t see a problem with that. To me the bottom line is cultivating a positive relationship with the church, not wandering “peacefully out of the church” as you so rightly observed. To me that is the main distinction. I think you’re on the right track, it’s the positive spiritual attitude that we like to share around here. It’s okay if some people express it with different words. I try to hear “TBM” words with “translating” ears.

[Orson]

kupord maizzed wrote:

I have no aspiration to have faith in the LDS Church. Does that make me fit ill here? I do wish to continue serving and attending weekly…

I assume you have a faith or desire for faith in something? Can that faith be ‘compatible’ with activity in the church? It sounds like you intend to remain “active”, do you look at that as a reluctant activity or perhaps a personally satisfying activity?

Personally I see some coming to SLDS saying “well I’m going to be in church, now how can I get something positive out of it?”

[Orson]

I love What Dreams May Come as well!

All I know about the subject is I’m comfortable in saying “I don’t know!”

[Orson]

Monkey, have you listened to the Bushman series podcasts? And the Stages of Faith?

[Orson]

Ha ha!! May we all seek for greater bluxark!

Emma, I loved your story. I think there is something to that. Some people would say it’s only working in your head – selective recognition, but I agree – if it “works” in that it makes you happier — well, isn’t that the point? Can’t we appreciate the effect for that reason alone?

[Orson]

Valoel wrote:

I want to make room here for people who believe less. I personally hope we can make room here for people who also believe more. That is also a path that people might decide to take.

Well said Valoel, this is what I was trying to get at with my “broccoli on the table” comment. Some people (or even the majority) may come here after hearing all the standard apologetics, but there is a chance that some may respond to that angle as well.

There are all kinds of opinions out there, may we learn to show mercy to those who act condescendingly and arrogant.

[Orson]

kupord maizzed, I hope Ray’s clarification has helped. While we don’t see ourselves as using traditional apologetics, we do hope to share new ways of looking at the church that help us feel better about what it is and what it teaches. In my opinion, that is exactly what Ray’s first comment was trying to do. I don’t think it was saying you weren’t understanding Mormonism properly. In fact personally I see “properly” as an irrelevant term on this site. Everyone’s opinion is valid, I’m sorry if you felt yours was compromised. There is a line where personal opinions become personal agendas – just to be clear we don’t welcome agendas that include tearing down or even chipping away at the church (not saying that is what you were doing). We recognize flaws yes, but ultimately when you want a relationship to work you don’t keep picking at the other party’s flaws.

I’m not trying to correct your view here, but trying to clarify the mission of StayLDS. I realize people have been hurt and feel betrayed by the church. We certainly are not here to say “it’s your own fault for not believing.” We’re here to say “yes, we know it hurts, take your time and go through the natural process – but when you realize you want to nurture a positive relationship with the church – then maybe together we can share new ways to look at things that will make this journey bearable” (and ultimately gain a new and meaningful relationship with the church). I know everyone is not at that point. Hopefully we can remember to have patience with people as they work through their grief when the crisis is hot. We are not here to say the church is flawless, we are here to say it can be worthwhile when you look in the right places. Just because someone hates broccoli and doesn’t want to smell it – should we remove it from the table and deny everyone else the opportunity? Personally I think a big part of success in this process is in learning to tune out the things that bother you. Not saying everyone should know how to do that from the start, but it is a goal to work toward.

I hope you’ll have patience with us.

[Orson]

I don’t know, maybe I’m in too deep with my own concerns at the moment to be worried about the rest of the world.

I see missionary work as a reach out to people who are looking for something new in their life. I don’t mind if others take a different view but like I said, I don’t have the energy to worry about their views right now.

Thanks for the question, maybe someone else has more energy at the moment.

[Orson]

Hi Dan, glad you found us! I can relate to many of your points, I wish we were given an enthusiastic “good job” in the church more often. I do agree that striving for checklist perfection can be a slow swampy road. I find myself with similar thoughts, wishing we could elevate our purpose and outlook toward becoming more charitable and Christ like in attitude, loving more unconditionally, and finding common ground to unify instead of differences to pick at and divide. I think with a little patience and practice we can bring out some of these things as we continue with the church.

It’s good to have you here!

[Orson]

Ditto, absolutely, yes, welcome!

[Author]

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