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Thanks for repeating your point Ray, I think it is helpful. Todd Compton has also said his “absolutist” faith has been replaced by a “non-absolutist” faith. This is one of the common threads I find – as you say we cannot be locked into the idea of “absolute” knowledge and also be free to discover more of God’s truth. I think a tangent to this idea can also be taken too far. Imagine faithful followers of Jim Jones that for whatever reason were in the states and missed the fateful event. They could try to argue that you don’t ‘really’ know what happened there, you don’t know everything that Jones said – and what his true intentions were. I realize this is a horrible parallel to make, but I think it’s good food for thought and a small reality check to keep ourselves from discrediting some things that are most likely reliable facts.
I also like your distinction between intellectual faith and faithful intellectualism. I agree – I think the former describes two things – faith and intellectualism, while the later isn’t really of faith at all.
I also like what B.H. Roberts said: “Simple faith …faith without understanding of the thing believed, is not equal to intelligent faith, the faith that is …supplemented by earnest endeavor to find through prayerful thought and research a rational ground for faith – for acceptance of truth; and hence the duty of striving for a rational faith in which the intellect as well as the heart …has a place and is factor.” (The Seventy’s Course in Theology, last volume)
I know what you’re saying Monkey, there is a lot of war and killing in the Book of Mormon. It’s hard to see a valid spiritual message in a lot of that. One essay by Eugene England, “Thou Shalt Not Kill” (I don’t know the original publication but it’s in his book “Making Peace”) opened my eyes to new and wonderful lessons that are actually in the Book of Mormon. He relishes the account of the Lamanite pacifists in Alma 24 (he also mentions this account in other essays) and takes strides to demonstrate that the true lesson of the Book of Mormon – if you realize that war is unable to create lasting peace (I believe he says the BoM shows this) – is in harmony with the life of Jesus. The message of pure religion; charity, love, mercy – can be found in there, as it can be found in life when we look for it. I’m still looking, but I’m grateful when I find these messages that I feel are something solid to hold onto.
How do we merge? That is an excellent question. I believe that is part of the mission of StayLDS. There are no easy answers. I believe the “merge” will come over time through increased awareness and understanding. The road to that point must be paved with love, respect, patience, and a desire to learn/understand. Knowing that we can change no one but ourselves – it sometimes can be a tremendous investment to embark on the path.
I believe the understanding begins with familiarity with these “alternate” views of Arrington, England, Bennion, etc. along with personal pondering and interpretation to things that we hear everyday in church. Over time we come to understand how our personal beliefs fit into the fabric of the church. Some talks from the recent conference come to mind “you may not know everything, but you know enough” and President Eyring’s talk (there were a few) I found to be warm and inclusive. I appreciate those messages and they help to sooth the strictly literal and dogmatic messages we also seem to hear at times.
I highly recommend “Stages of Faith” by James W. Fowler if you haven’t read it already. To me it is an invaluable framework that sheds light on why the church culture is what it is, why a crisis of faith is part of a natural faith evolution, and it gives hope of reuniting in a meaningful way with the faith tradition (stage 5). I’ve heard it whispered that StayLDS could be seen as “helping people reach stage 5”. Others rightfully point out that the book is not a roadmap, and many things contribute to the natural stage progression – but I think it is a must read for anyone who has or is experiencing the “crisis” (stage 4).
I for one am glad to have you around Ray, I’m excited that you want to help fulfill the mission of StayLDS (SLDS?) I think you are perfectly suited for the position and can be looked to as a role model for many I’m sure. I should say the same goes for the others around here. Valoel, I can see your time and dedication, I’m sure I’m not the only one that appreciates it. So many things are taken for granted in an online community. To all the other contributors/visitors – thanks for reading and posting!
cjonesy108 wrote:I’m still falling off the cliff, and am not quite sure how I will land.
Welcome cjonesy108! I hope you’ll feel at home around here, and stick around to get a better feel for things as we develop. I appreciate your efforts to co-exist at both communities, I personally think both can be helpful to anyone in a crisis state – the wider you can open your viewfinder at the moment the better off you’ll be in the future.
Please feel free to post away on whatever thoughts or questions are relevant to you at the moment!
Monkey wrote:I want to participate and not tear anyone’s faith from them. I love it that my husband and kids have complete faith and strong testimonies. For me with a literal mind my understanding of the required beliefs did not work to the best advantage toward my being loving.
Welcom Monkey! (Is that what you like to be called?)
I hope you are taking Ray’s words to heart, I think he is trying to be loving and inclusive the way Jesus demonstrated throughout his life.
I love these things you posted at the end of your intro. In my view if you don’t want to tear down anyone’s faith, and if you want to participate in the church to reap some personal/spiritual benefit for yourself then you are fully welcome here at StayLDS! We have no requirement for specific beliefs, I think we for the most part share the general goal of wanting to grow personally (become better people) and we want to participate in the LDS church looking for positive fruits from that participation. That doesn’t mean we will always agree with everything the sunday school teacher says (who does anyway?) I think if you hang around here you’ll find that we don’t care WHAT you believe specifically, as much as we appreciate THAT you do have personal beliefs that you cherish. If your beliefs are love based I for one will always respect them. We are a community of inclusion, I believe that is what the essence of God supports.
I hope in the near future we’ll get more of a framework up of the basics for re-integrating into the LDS faith community from our perspective. It is not a pre-determined or clearly defined path, but rather a highly individualized path – although there are some items that many people have found helpful, at least to start out with depending on their particular position. These things include: Look for the good, Consider the metaphorical, Avoid absolutism and Love is the law. From my (short) experience reading the right material and pondering the relevant questions go a long way toward building a new and positive relationship.
Again, welcome!
Valoel, I agree with your entire post and I think you’ve hit it pretty square on the head. Valoel wrote:
NOM = people who want/need to stay positively engaged with the Church, but don’t believe anymore.StayLDS = people who lost faith, but want to believe again in the LDS Church
A year ago I would not have understood this mission – people who have lost faith that “want to believe again”. I would have thought “they want to fool themselves?” or something similar. I like how you stated “people who want to rebuild a NEW faith in the LDS church.” It’s true, there is no going backwards in life – we cannot rewind the clock. In life we move forward from where we are. I see this “new” faith as personal and unique to each individual. Some may feel they can reintegrate into the LDS community practically as seamlessly as ‘before’. Others may not. I, like you see the common thread through StayLDS as a desire to be CONNECTED to the church in a way that goes beyond physical presence. It includes some sort of personal/spiritual benefit from participation. I think a desire for growth is the key, and the willingness to be open. A few sayings come to mind:
It is better to be good than to be right (so often we want to feel ‘right’, that WE are the ones that KNOW what the truth really is).
Becoming is more important than Doing.
Love IS the law.
Thanks for a great thread, I look forward to more of the structure here coming to light!
weissadler wrote:I want to raise my family in the church, but I also want to be true to myself. I’m trying to find my place again in the LDS faith. But my paradigm of how I viewed the church has shifted dramatically and I’m hoping once it settles I’ll feel at peace within the church.
Welcome Weissadler! This statement echoes my feelings 100%. I have high hopes that it’s possible to piece things together in a way that affords both honesty with myself and peace within the church.
Glad you joined us!
Welcome Shederlaomach! I too have great hopes for this forum, glad you found us. I think we all see something valuable in the church, something that we don’t want to dismiss entirely – whatever that may be. Most of us have also felt a strain in our relationship with the church at some point, and are at different stages of repairing or ‘building a new relationship’ with the church (as Richard Bushman has referred to the process). I have great hopes that StayLDS will become a valuable resource for anyone who can relate to this experience and has a common desire. Again, welcome! I look forward to hearing more from you.
I really appreciate your post Hawkgrrrl. hawkgrrrl wrote:I think the key is that once you have taken the “backstage tour,” you start to get an idea for how things work to bring it all together, and you realize that all human organizations are make-believe to a certain extent. Some people take this newfound perspective and use it to criticize and mock the actors from behind the curtain. Some people try to drop sandbags and sabotage the play. But some just sit back and enjoy watching how it all comes together and realize that it’s not the only stage in town, and every theater works the same way.
I love this analogy. Some people can get so caught up in the hurt they experience through learning that “it’s a play – not ‘real’ life”. But I think what they miss is even more profound: If you sit back and pay attention to the story unfolding on the stage, you realize how it IS inspired. It may not be exactly what you originally thought it was, but as you come to see what it in fact IS – you have an even greater appreciation of how it came to be, how it is true/good (even with, or even because of its flaws), and how it can impact lives.
SallyM wrote:
Ok so now in my life it happened again. My dh and I have struggled so much the past couple of years due to his crisis in faith. Recently though we were losing all hope, and i think were very close to separating. Then my prayers changed again…I was open to any suggestion as I was so so sad. Then I had an experience that made me do a complete backflip. It was a prompting to say to my dh “Im okay with what you are doing, I want you to be free to live as you want”. I kept pushing this out of my consciousness as I felt like I was backflipping on my principles etc…but again the prompting came back….about 10 times in one day.I then late that night told my dh. He was totally shocked, and told me I was brave. I kind of figured it would either speed up the recovery or speed up the end!
Since then I have had many more prayers confirming to me that my dh still is the very fine person I married many years ago. I feel so calm and peaceful. So hopeful (not that he will want to be LDS again, but hopeful we have a good future together etc) and praying has given this to me. I think this is spiritual. It is to me anyway.
Sally, I was recently reading an essay by Eugene England that to me describes exactly why this experience you describe is a true prompting of God. It is not turning your back on your principles, it is in fact learning to live the true principles of the Gospel of love, peace, and mercy.
I think you’ll find it an interesting read. “Healing and Making Peace” (if it opens in the middle scroll to page 1 of the .pdf)
SallyM wrote:So basically now I am asking myself what I actually believe and what is it that I just do out of culture/expectations etc. Its been a bit confronting to say the least. So now I am so wanting to get back to a place where I wanted no other thing then to be LDS. All of a sudden it feels like I could take it or leave it. My kids are still very little so I guess I am motivated for them to go through primary etc as at least most of that program focusses on Christ.
Hi Sally. I agree with Valoel that you probably haven’t lost as much as you may think. I see the process as a maturing, it doesn’t always feel comfortable, but I believe we become better off for it. Learning that leaders are human is an important part of understanding the true nature of their role, and our role of seeking our own personal confirmation/clarification. It’s difficult when some members tend to teach tradition or culture as doctrine, but when we learn to separate what is truly of God from what is a particular man’s (or group’s) understanding then we personally grow that much closer to God. It has been difficult for me to learn that spiritual truths often cannot be verified physically, I didn’t want to accept that when the tradition that I grew up with was contrary. Now I’m starting to see how something can be very true spiritually, even though it may not be in a purely physical sense.
hawkgrrrl wrote:…It’s kind of a signpost to Stage 5 (please don’t crucify me for talking Fowler!).
I love talking Fowler! I think his model is very helpful to this particular mission. I hope we can comfortably refer to his work here without feeling condemnation.
I also enjoyed your comment: “OTOH, maybe we are like tour guides who don’t really know what we are talking about, but we sure are making it interesting for the tourists!”
Yes, in my view this can be a touchy subject. My personal concern is not so much with the differences in the accounts – as much as it is with one specific account being canonized. To me, it would be much easier to dismiss some of the differences as the ‘focus’ that was relevant at the specific time it was recorded – and just flow with the ‘spirit’ of the vision without getting too hung up on details — IF all accounts were seen as equals. The problem in my mind enters when one account becomes canonized and therefore elevated in importance above all others. This is where Joseph’s stated intent: “for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong” seems to seriously conflict with the earlier account: “by Searching the Scriptures I found that [mankind] did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatised from the true and liveing faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the Gospel of Jesus Christ as recorded in the new testament” (stating his knowledge BEFORE he went to pray)
So where does that leave me? How do I reconcile the issue and gain a level of peace about it to improve my relationship with the church? . . .
I guess I apply the phrase from the introduction of the 1830 Book of Mormon: ‘if there are mistakes they are the mistakes of man’ meaning if some details are not accurate they simply demonstrate the ability of man to insert his fallibility into the work. To me this has become an important lesson on what to do with every word that I read or hear. To me (at least presently) nothing physical is infallible. The scriptures are physical, they exist on paper. Prophets are physical and mortal. It is my job to check everything I hear against the source of spiritual truth, present it to God for my own personal version of verification (or possible clarification). I see this ‘new’ understanding on my part a tremendous blessing, for I now believe what I believe more firmly than I ever have. We are not ultimately held accountable by any other physical or mortal source. It seems so simple when you hear it, but this was a difficult lesson for me to learn.
So I guess I’m starting to see all these ‘discrepancies’ as clues, items that God wants us to pay attention to. I think they are there for a reason and they can lead us to higher versions of the truth. I try to always ask myself “what does this mean?” or “what are the implications?” For the most part I have come to grasp that God speaks to all men according to their personal understanding, no human voice is infallible.
