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LookingHard wrote:Orson wrote:
For me it all goes to show the church is very human, with specks of divine. Once I fully embrace that reality I don’t have to worry about the human part, I can focus on those wonderful little specks.
Let me pick (maybe too much) at your words. “Specks” of divine to me sounds like you are saying the vast vast majority is not divine – as in very rare to see the divine.Part of me wants to say this is equivalent of staying with an abusive spouse because they occasionally show true love. I realize that is an exaggeration as I do not see most church stuff as abusive (but certainly not saying there is some abuse and bad things). There are many benefits for being a member of the church.
Don’t take my asking on this as just bashing. I am seriously trying to figure out if I can really do as this website is named and “stayLDS” long term. I am having great side conversations with a few of you on this site that seem to have figured out how to do that. I thank you for taking the time to help me.
Is this something I might grow out of as I continue and just try to be more patient? At one level I do feel I have passed from my “pissed at being lied to” phase and I can see good and bad in the church. But as time goes on it is less about just being patient and I feel less general desire to associate with the organization. Part of me desperately wants to find a way to stay, but I don’t feel I am going to be doing it long term. The lack of church leadership or peers in the church admitting that there is much of anything less than perfect in the church just makes it harder for me to not stand up and point to the elephant in the room.
I feel like there is something I am just not getting that some of you have. And let me thank you again for many of your efforts to help others like me see/feel/do as you do. I really appreciate this site. I do think I might have left (at least stop attending) by now if I didn’t have this place to explore (and vent).
I don’t often single out church leadership in my mind, “the church” is the full membership and yes we are regular humans. Leaders are not extraordinary men, they are regular men with a demanding calling. I do see a lot of opinion perpetuated as something like bedrock, trusting others is one of the potential pitfalls of life. We must go to the source, and yes trust our answers even if they seem to conflict with the answer our brother received. He may have a good reason to do/believe something that I am not called to follow. I don’t pretend to see the end from the beginning. I don’t want to limit the potential of life or God.
Maybe every spouse could be called “abusive” depending on our definition of the word. Yes there is a generally accepted range and definition, but our focus and personal experience can open us up to almost any possibility. I believe for the most part we are in the drivers seat in life, we can choose our experience. “The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven…”
Personal strength is the key, don’t suppress negative experiences – let them go. “Suppress” means to hang on to but hide, if we let go of something we are no longer near it and it cannot poison us.
I have always said members will find it infinitely easier to stay after a faith crisis if they have for the most part enjoyed their experience in/with church. Those with an overall negative experience may not be able to find the personal reasons to stay.
One “key” in my mind (I don’t know if this is one of the things you are looking for) is to know that different personalities need to believe different things. We have our own set of preferences and while certainty feels like a burden to me, I can see that others lean heavily on their sense of certainty. I can’t try to take that away from them because I don’t understand all the facets of it that exist for them. These things are not just nuggets that we attach to from one angle and in a prescribed way. Our concepts are interwoven with our personality and the way we hold/use/measure/compare to the world around us is completely unique even if it seems to be very similar to others. My primary objective in life is to become more loving, and according to my beliefs more divine, so as I interact with others I don’t want to pull at or attack any part of their being or what they hold as precious. If it is poison I want to educate them in non-threatening general terms about poison or false ideas so they may choose to examine it and possibly in time “grow out” or “un-weave” it from their being.
I cannot take it out, it is not mine to deal with. They must make their own decision. I must also recognize that I probably hold some things to my detriment. As I live day to day focusing on love I must recognize that others will speak at times from their false ideas, just as I will. If I take offense I show my weakness. What they hand out is not my responsibility, it is theirs to give. My job is to decide what I will pick up and hang on to in life for my own progression.
I like the allegory. My first thought to “Why Did Nephi Have To Kill Laban?” was:
Quote:So we could ask ourselves this question.
I believe life is full of difficult questions for our benefit. Adam was forced to evaluate the command to ‘not eat of the tree of knowledge’ for a reason.
When everything is simple and easy to follow – straight forward – then our growth curve stays very low.
For me it all goes to show the church is very human, with specks of divine. Once I fully embrace that reality I don’t have to worry about the human part, I can focus on those wonderful little specks. I have listened to several episodes, not all. I have also read a lot on our practice of polygamy, and have polygamous ancestors. Everyone has their slant, I see some things a little differently than Lindsay, and several things different from Brian Hales – while agreeing with Brian on a few other things.
I agree it is very difficult to see the hand of God in our polygamous history. Most of us would have no idea what Jacob 2:31,32 is talking about if we didn’t have polygamy in our history the way we do (or if we remained ignorant of the history). I think it presents us with an important lesson that I hope we can collectively hold on to.
I don’t know if it will be helpful but all I can do is share my own truth. I am not trying to be light or funny: I have found peace and meaning in the fact that life is a total confusing mess. The highs of mortality are defined by the lows, so without hard times there can be no joy. Love is the answer, Elder Uchtdorf said something like it is the means and the destination. It takes effort, and that work creates the reward. Everything worthwhile comes from love. The truth is love. 1 John 4:8
LIP wrote:
SilentDawning wrote:And I hate to say it, our church has been guilty of it over the years on certain points, even on a church wide, official basis.
This (as you can probably tell) is the main reason for my post; I have been feeling betrayed and trying to reconcile why this would happen in the True Church.One of the most difficult and helpful changes I have made in my own understanding is this concept of “true.” When I try to make the word say “literal, factual exclusive church of God” then it bumps up uncomfortably against all kinds of other things – including circumstances in our history and some of our scriptures that say God loves and cares for (speaks to?) his children whoever/wherever they are.
On the other hand when a bicycle wheel is true it accomplishes its purpose. When an arrow is true it can reach its target. In my own life the church fulfilled the general purpose of helping me reach adulthood with morals and values. In that way the church is true from my experience.
Some members have a close or general target that they are aiming for with their “arrow” of the church. It will not be hard for them to hit it, so the church is easily “true” for them. Others may have a distant and very detailed objective, for which there is probably no “arrow” on earth that can be true enough to reach it.
This is what I mean when I say we can choose to see the church as true in our own lives. It all depends on our expectations.
Always Thinking, I did have a similar experience when I was very young. It formed the basis for my being confused about “the spirit” through much of my life. I thought I received a very clear and specific answer to an urgent prayer. Very specific timelines were involved. I felt comforting “warm fuzzies” that eased my mind and gave me confidence. The expected time frame then passed without the resulting circumstance that I expected. I didn’t know where I went wrong, I figured I must have misinterpreted the feelings – they must have been my own emotions and not the spirit telling me what I wanted to hear.
Through most of my life I never understood what people were talking about when they mentioned “the spirit.” They would say “the spirit was so thick” and I was utterly confused because all I felt was the exact same thing that had led me astray.
Today my perspective is different in two ways: 1) I don’t clearly understand the difference between our emotion and the spirit, but as DJ expressed I don’t expect to see clearly.
2) My failure to interpret exact time-frames has led to my belief that we probably ask too much of divine communication. The end circumstance that I prayed for did eventually happen, it just took a lot longer than I wanted. I now hold the view that we often expect answers to come at the 3 ft level, when the satellite images are simply not able to zoom in enough to capture that level of detail. I see this as the design of mortality, the purpose of life on earth is to give us some distance so we can learn self-reliance.
Unknown wrote:I guess the confusion is that when the church takes a stance on an issue, it becomes its work. So whether it’s gay marriage or the civil rights amendment, if you oppose it and actively fight to get it passed, it would seem you are trying to frustrate the church’s work and should be excommunicated.
The one qualifier here is the church’s work cannot be a strictly political work. The crossover is where the church takes a stand on a moral position – that directly corresponds with a political position. But with the example of drinking/WOW I can be against prohibition while at the same time promoting the WoW. This is why according to the rules of the church members should never be in trouble for their political activities. It gets messy because of natural crossover.
Remember this video/talk from Elder Holland? Sometimes an answer to a prayer (revelation) will send us down the “wrong” road for a purpose. I feel my concept of God is broad and deep and I can express it in many different ways depending on who I am talking to. If I am talking with atheist friends I can say I define God into existence. “The universe and life came to be through some power or circumstance, whatever that is, I call it God.” “The source of love, that is God.” I don’t make God adhere to some preconceived idea, God is the reality – it then becomes my job to understand the nature of God. Many questions cannot be answered, I believe for a reason.
The way I see it God’s primary language is love, that is how we can know the message is divine. Love that leads to personal growth.
Welcome LIP! I’m glad you found us. I can relate to where you are and what you feel, I could have written your intro several years ago.
What I have come to realize is my path is determined by my focus. When I spend my time scrutinizing all the problems I live in frustration. When my efforts are to find peace and higher ground I do much better. I do enjoy the details of history, and I do want to understand everything as well as humanly possible, but I need to know how to frame it in a way that allows my personal state to embrace peace.
Personally I have found much that has been taught in the church that I can hang onto. Symbolism is powerful, I love to look for symbols in everything. Love is the answer, and so much points to it. We get a lot of good, sound advice in the church, and yes a lot of silly stuff that does not even reach me anymore.
The way I see it we are talking about fear. You can’t win a battle against fear. I love the saying “you can’t fight darkness with anything but light.” Likewise you can’t fight fear with anything but love. To truly work with love we need to immerse ourselves in their perspectives, until that is overwhelmingly established the battle makes everyone a loser.
It is not easy, in fact it is the pinnacle challenge of life and for most people is very near impossible. However, the first step toward a goal can only come after properly identifying it.
In my family situation I have learned that it is not productive to try to share anything outside of the church “norm.” He who hath ears can hear, but not all people have ears, that is the reality. Before I say anything I try to listen to the spirit as I ask myself “will this comment end in a productive way?” I try to work on love. Cultivate love, it is the answer. Rise above. Prayers to you!
nibbler wrote:I know this talks about “law received” and that members of the church have supposedly received the law but what does it actually mean to receive the law?
If I was in charge “law” would be changed to something that more reflects enlightenment. In the final “judgment” we will be seen for the amount of divine wisdom that we reflect. The image of a judgment exists to help us consider our personal growth through mortality. God doesn’t need to judge and sentence us, we do that to ourselves. God’s job is to help us see the divine within ourselves that we lose sight of.
