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Thanks for initiating this thread hawk! This weekend I was thinking of how grateful I am for the time and effort people put into the thoughtful posts at StayLDS. My father confronted me about my inactivity-not sure who told him-but I was able to handle it in a loving, non-defensive way thanks to the insight and advice from people on this site. What could have been explosive and hurtful, was instead loving and uplifting. I really feel like this site has been my anchor in an otherwise stormy sea of doubt and discovery. Thanks to everyone! Welcome goodtruebeautiful! Quote:As much as it would make my life easier, I’m not sure I can stay LDS. It would be akin to crawling back into Plato’s cave after seeing what the real world is like. Life is grander and more complicated than Mormonism can handle. There’s so much more to learn and explore, so much to enjoy and appreciate, so much more to experience. I tired of feeling it’s my fault that Mormonism isn’t big enough to contain all truth.
I can’t live a fake life. I can’t live with blinders on. I can’t live in a cage. There’s a journey out there that I’m ready to take. I just wish those I love best… could share it with me.
I loved your introduction and can relate to it on so many levels. Having taken a break from the church for several months now, I can honestly say that I have more peace and happiness in my life than I ever had while attending faithfully. This respite from activity has provided me with an amazing opportunity to search for MY truth, which has been an invaluable experience. I currently struggle with the pressure from my ward and extended family to return to full activity, but this does not resonate with me at the moment. My dh has seen such a tremendous change in me that he refuses to pressure me into doing anything that conflicts with this journey of growth and happiness that I am currently on. At this point I don’t know if it will one day lead me back to the church, but the amazing people at StayLDS have allowed me to keep that option open. I am certain you will receive the same gracious support that I have here. Best wishes on your present journey.
Hi Daisy, I am so proud of your son! That must have been really hard for him to take a stand, but what blessings will come to his area if they work to eradicate racism. I think that is a real problem with missionaries, especially those from Utah (in my experience, which I won’t go into here). My children behave in the same kinds of ways as your son and I really do hope that the future of the church will be more inclusive because their generation (more than in the past) seems to embrace diversity.
There are a lot of Mormon feminists, in fact, I think way more than would admit it due to the misunderstandings of feminism in the media. I find great strength in their stories. You would love the book I recommended, there are some awesome women from all walks of life, but very inspiring feminists as well. Two of my “favorite” Mormon feminists are Laurel Thatcher Ulrich and Claudia Bushman. There is a link to a great interview with Bushman on the front page of Staylds.com (009: Claudia Bushman, Women in the LDS Church) for some reason I could not pull up the link, but listen for her take on the organizational aspects of the church, I think you will really like it! There is an awesome back story about her and Ulrich, if you are interested in knowing more about them just pm me. Thanks again for your encouraging words!
Quote:Violence? Letting two people who love each other get married is “violent?” I need a lesson in what violent means, but it seems to me it is not even in the same universe as love.
Rix, I was so bothered by this too! Terrible choice in wording, especially in the climate of hatespeech in the corridor!
Valoel: Quote:It sounds like you are talking about the practice of opening the scriptures randomly to read, sort of as an oracle to examine problems or feelings in your life…The scriptures are valuable because they act as a mirror for us to examine our world and our souls.
Yes, this is exactly what I am trying to say…you just say it so much better Valoel!
Bill:
Quote:I would add that it is only when reading the scriptures that I ever get the what appears to be “random” inspiration or answers , that is a clear message from the Holy Ghost that I should do something that I haven’t even been thinking about at all consciously but as soon as it comes I recognize just how right and important it is.
I can very much relate to this. I think the reason my husband brought that up was to remind me that in my process of questioning/doubting I did not need to abandon my spiritual foundation, but to look to that for the peace and comfort I have received in the past.(My dh might have wanted to tell me to take a pill too!
😆 )I very much agree that others find the same spiritual guidance through other sacred texts, music, etc. but this was a good reminder to me to look for peace in the process.
Yes, I was so happy to read about this approach. It seems much more consistent with Christlike behavior than what happened with props 8/102. Quote:Unfortunately, this type of situation can commonly lead to cognitive dissonance that leads to disaffection and questioning. I can think of quite a few exit narratives where people talked about feeling those same feelings, but then realizing they were watching a great movie or listening to something beautiful, then it hits them like a 2×4 in the face … that was exactly how they felt when they prayed about _________ [fill in the blank with Church item, BofM, Church is True, etc.]
Sorry for the confusion. I am not refering to “is the church true?” type of questions leading to TBM faith promoting answers. I think I ditched that method of scripture reading years ago. For me, it has been answers to personal struggles, directives that have prompted me to make positive changes in my life, or comforting words that have soothed hurt feelings, and I always read whatever I open the scriptures to, rather than a purposeful course of study (with the exception of institute classes). I don’t think I could really get into dissecting the scriptures to prove historical accuracy or doctrinal absolutism because from the little bit of that I have done in school, I already know that I would find that problematic. But, for me that is not really the point either. I think the point is that they have been a profoundly useful tool in my spirituality, however that has transformed through the years in relation to my acceptance and/or rejection of certain doctrine. What I think I am trying to say is that it is my link to spirituality, not doctrinal veracity. And my dh husband’s question was not posed to challenge me to think of anything along the lines of whether or not I thought the church was true, more to consider what had worked for me spiritually. Am I making any sense??
Quote:FWIW, I came to that same conclusion. All things being pretty messed up no matter where I looked, I decided to keep the familiar building blocks I was given in my LDS upbringing. I am comfortable here. I know the local language and customs, and I have already so much invested in it. I feel free to pull in anything else that looks interesting and enlightening. I feel free to jettison what doesn’t work.
Thanks for this insight Valoel. I am trying so hard to reconcile all of the doubts and concerns I have. It seems like one minute I am ready to leave and the next I feel to stay, but I am begining to feel kind of peaceful again when I think of reworking my relationship with the church in a way that works for me. No matter how painful it is to stay in, it seems like taking away the foundation of my family’s life would be far more damaging than staying and trying to work it out. If it were just me, this might not be the case, but leaving would devastate my kids and husband (though he is kind enough not to admit it). And I really like the freedom in the thought that I, too, can
Quote:free to pull in anything else that looks interesting and enlightening. I feel free to jettison what doesn’t work.
Tigger, I think we should introduce the interesting folks from my kid’s seminary who perpetuate hatespeech and racism with your misguided SS teacher. Maybe they are related! 
Quote:Oh…I also listened to a podcast on organizational abuse. Wow. I have allowed myself to be abused….but no more and I have to be honest…I am feeling SO FREE. My attitude is influencing my family and they are getting the courage to refuse to do whatever they are “assigned” to do if it doesn’t feel right or work for them.
Hi Daisy, do you have the links to this podcast? I can very much relate to what you have gone through, but I did not know there was a formal term for it, much less any help. My last calling was very intense and run by a dictator-type who kept piling on tasks, then micro-managing the details, so if things were not to her liking we would have to re-do them. All superfluous and costly, which was especially concerning to me in this economy when paying tithing has become such a hardship for people-I hated spending church funds on crafts, decorations and fancy refreshments. I could go on, but my greatest challenge was the total lack of respect for my time which was extremely valuable as I have a family, work, go to school, etc. This leader volunteered for extra responsibilities and assignments, then became very upset if anyone questioned this. One of the low points for me was serving refreshments on one of my kid’s b-days. I should have told her to take a hike, and I so regret that I put my kid off instead. It sounds like you are coming to a much more peaceful place with this than I am. And, I admire the example you are setting for your family to set healthy boundaries. I do believe that service is crucial to the church, but I also know that the focus can be misguided and end up being detrimental to those trying to serve.
Quote:There are prophetesses, etc. is this anachronistic for the bible?
This is not my specific area, but I have studied this out a bit academically. Though it is true there are prophetesses in the Bible, women are clearly not significant, and even in the case of the prophetess Miriam, her “murmuring” resulted in being “smitten with leprosy” (see Bible dictionary p.733). Thus, her power was thwarted because she refused bend to patriarchal control-a “great” cautionary tale. My personal take on the Bible is that it was canonized in order to create and sustain a strict patriarchy that subjugated women. Some religions have taken this to the extreme, while others have rejected this tradition outright. IMO Mormonism falls somewhere in the middle.
What has always resonated more with me is the presence of women in the life of Christ, especially in thinking of the misogynistic canonization of the Bible. It seems that women were so prominent that they could not be removed from Jesus’ experiences, and leaves me to wonder how much this strong presence was diluted in the process of canonization.
Concerning the BofM and D&C, this has always bothered me, but I do agree with Ray that if women played a prominent role in Mormon scripture, it would be seen as anachronistic and would instantly be debunked by critics.
I don’t know much about this, but have found it interesting: I have an historian friend who was raised Seventh-Day Adventist who has told me that their church also began in the second great awakening and has some similar doctrines to Mormonism, but their leader was a prophetess. I wonder what their scripture looks like?
hwkgrrrl, thanks for the link, I can’t wait to read it. I think we are close enough to Utah that a lot of members here act the same way as your Utah transplant. It is super fun to deal with! Quote:I remember when a letter from the 1st Pres (Benson) was read in Sacrament meeting about how the women shouldn’t work outside the home, the bishop said “this doesn’t apply to us.”
Lol, Rix! I think this is my mantra!
Quote:She would get very annoyed that introductions were inevitably accompanied with the question, “What are you doing out here?” and that most of the others answers were “My husband is going to dental/law/medical school.” But she was even more annoyed that if she answered by saying “My husband is going to medical school” they would cut her off, expecting that to be the whole of the answer, without letting her conclude “and I’m going to graduate school getting my PhD in Bioengineering.”
MisterCurie, I can sooo relate to this! I can’t stand the “What does your husband do?” mentality.
Quote:DWs first ward upon converting to Mormonism was very liberal with lots of hippies, card-carrying members of the communist party and feminists getting higher education while their husbands cared for their kids.
This blows my mind! I want to go to this ward!!!Quote:For example, it can’t really be church doctrine that women shouldn’t get an education, it must just be a cultural thing that so many women stay home to raise their families, but when she dug down into it, while there are some statements that women should get an education, there are many more addresses from General Authorities in GC that women should stay home and raise their families as that is the ideal
This is an interesting point. When I went back to school after being out of hs for a decade, I had several little children, we lived away from family, and I had some health issues, so towards the end of the first semester, I was ready to quit what I considered a failed experiment. I went to women’s conference that October and Pres. Monson gave a great talk about women’s education that I can honestly say has been a strength to me throughout my education (which is still in progress). I cannot count the number of times I have wanted to give up because it is incredibly difficult to raise a family and obtain an education, and I also cannot count the number of times I have been supported in this endeavor through prayer and priesthood blessings when I had nothing more to give. I know this is the path I am supposed to take, and the spiritual witnesses I have had regarding my education are very important to me. BUT I am also totally marginalized (and at times persecuted) in my ward/stake for seeking an education because it is not in elementary ed (which is still stereotypically acceptable), and we don’t NEED the $$, so it is assumed that I have no justification for seeking higher education, that I am harming my children by making them sacrifice, blah, blah. Ironically, critiques are always from women, men are surprisingly supportive of my choices-especially older men. Sorry, I digress into another gender analysis! So, I think this goes back to the culture/doctrine discussion because I think doctrinally, women are sent many messages that are antiquated and have no bearing on reality. Historian Laurel Thatcher Ulrich wrote something about the church needing to recognize that being a stay-at-home mom was really a white, middle-class, American phenomenon that happened in the 1950s (and helped to spark the second wave feminist movement, I might add), but that economically this lifestyle has never really been a reality, especially for women historically despite notions of Victorian domesticity. (I probably butchered her point and will find the reference). But, I think this makes a lot of sense. I cannot think of any woman (I am racking my brain now
Quote:I don’t think that you can separate things quite so simply into culture vs doctrine when you use the LDS Church as your standard. This is precisely the issue that led to DWs disaffection. As a convert to the church from Catholicism, having grown up in the East and currently living in the East, she was frustrated with what she felt was church culture imported by the Utah transplants in our ward. She decided to start a crusade to separate church doctrine from culture and blog about it (
http://www.myriadmormonmusings.blogspot.com . Her ultimate conclusions, and hence the disaffection, was that within the LDS church, culture influences doctrine and cannot be separated from doctrine . She found more evidence for the culture of man influencing the LDS Church doctrine than the eternal truths of God influencing doctrine . I guess my point is that just because it is Church doctrine, it doesn’t mean it is “true doctrine” and may very well be “false doctrine.” I suppose those elements of “false doctrine” are the things we ignore in the LDS cafeteria.I completely agree with you Mr.C.! And, being in the midst of Mormon culture, there is really no way to seperate the doctrine from the cultural traditions. I am constantly trying to explain the difference to my children when they encounter crazy cultural traditions at church that are antithetical to our family’s social views, or our understanding of doctrine- it is exhausting to try to correct it within our home or ignore it (cafeteria style)! The most disheartening aspect of culture influincing doctrine in the church is that it does not reflect the fact that the church is world-wide and encompasses so many ethnicities, cultures, political structures, etc. I think leaders are trying to be more inclusive, but not by much yet, and it certainly is not reflected in the main. As to your comment regarding “true/false” doctrine: this is one area that I am struggling with now. It seems like I have been able to find the answers to my questions in the past and could be somewhat satisfied in sifting through what was said in meetings, then searching for the “truth” on my own, but this strategy is of little use to me at the moment. And frankly, thinking of this in terms of Mormon culture makes a lot of sense. We all relay gospel doctrine through a personal lens, and if your only exposure is Mormon culture, then of course you would filter and share the doctrine through this perspective. I can understand, but I can also say that it is getting pretty old for me.
I am curious about your comment concerning Utah transplants in your East Coast ward. What was your ward like before they moved in? Do you think they were able to influence ward leadership because they were from “Zion”? What changes came about from their influence? Are there other members from the East that can identify the changes/influence?
Hi MWallace, Ashleigh and silentstruggle, I am so touched by your stories and feel such compassion for what you have gone through. Having dealt with mental illness for my entire life, first with my mom and then myself after kids, I have held on to two important truths about mental illness.
First, I am encouraged and hopeful that most of the world’s brilliant minds have dealt with some form of mental illness or learning differences. IMO in many ways people who do not fit into the “norm” mentally are able to tap into other-and often beautiful-resources that others cannot. This is not to say that there is not real pain in mental illness, but this is just one of my hopeful thoughts on the subject.
Second, as an undergrad, I had the amazing opportunity to take my psychology classes from a wonderful LDS counselor who reiterated to us repeatedly that mental illness was a disease of the body just like diabetes. We were in a predominantly Mormon town, so he would emphasize that it would be absurd to suggest to someone with diabetes that they should pray more and exercise more faith in order to be healed.
I do wish there was greater understanding amongst members of the church in this area. I just think that unless you have dealt with it in some way in your own life, it is so difficult to understand. People honestly think you can will such things away, or that “giving in” to mental illness is a sign of personal weakness. It is so unfortunate, but I hope that you find comfort in knowing how many people on this site deal with the some of the same things, I know I do.
