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DarkJedi wrote:

I was ordained a HP at 34, these things tend to happen younger in small wards outside the Mormon Corridor. And I wasn’t the youngest HP, nor the oldest of course. At that time most in my ward (and stake) were under 45. So, we were often similar in age to elders and often had young families ourselves. My take on service projects hasn’t changed in my years in the church – I will go if I don’t have something else more pressing and if it doesn’t significantly impact time with my own family or time I should be spending doing things at my own house (in other words, doing someone else’s work is not an excuse for not taking care of my own home and family). I don’t recall anyone ever in my ward – ever – pointing out that someone wasn’t there helping, elder or HP. I never recall any criticism of anyone, elder of HP. Perhaps it’s a cultural thing – if so, I’m glad I have my culture and not yours.

My wife attended a small branch in upstate New York, in the mid 80s to mid 90s, herself and she has told me it is different than the chruch in the west also. So yeah, it is a cultural thing for sure.

Actually in my new ward, I have been attending the last little while, seems totally different. I haven’t noticied this at all. However my first two wards as an Elder, for more than 15 years, I noticed this quite a bit. It was dissappointing, even though at the time I was mostly young and without a wife and kids, but even at the time it seemed logical to me that men who had less on their plate at home could come out more often.

In my last ward it was the EQP who was picking on the EQ itself. He was also older and did not have small kids at home, so comments are spot on, we must tend to forget the difficulty the younger people have at home with small kids and a wife who needs a break. I stopped attended EQ in that ward after his tirade, so did a couple of others in a similar situation to mine. Still liked the EQP personally, but did not care to attend EQ with him.

I am glad to hear that my experience is unique and not widespread. :thumbup: I feared that it was.

Utah I bet can be even more difficult. I don’t think I would make it there. I have visited enough to know that. 🙂

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EuSouScott wrote:

As much as possible, I have been trying hard to ignor any negative judgments that come naturally and I am trying my hardest to not roll my eyes.

Gosto de seu nome EuSouScott! Muito legal de usar seu portugues!

Dude,

I have the hardest time with this too. I am pretty forgiving of the regular members in sacrament talks with this, but have a harder time when stake leaders ramble on during sacrament talks. They get a lot of practice and should know better. 😆

Last HC speaker went on and on about how there is not excuse for missing home teaching. Tearing into the ward hard core over it. If he can’t find a reason, we can trade lives for a month or two and see how he does. I think he might find a few reasons. Not saying I can do better at his life than he can, but I am not at the pulpit passing judgement. I like HT, but I can’t always simply make time. This talk was a big challenge for me. I have little tolerance for leaders that don’t preach with understanding and compassion. This hits on the culture problem that many of you talked about in this thread.

Should we HT? No doubt, but to pound the pulpit telling your audience that they are excuse makers and that all they have to do is simply make the time. I was pissed after Sacrament. I fought that emotion, and made it back the next week. 😆 Still drives me nuts though. Would have liked a more spiritually edifying talk. I do realize work is required on my part too, to not be so judgemental on speakers as well. It is a challenge. I find myself rolling my eyes too often. 😆

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Joni wrote:

[I understand that I only have to hearken to (obey) my husband if his comandments are righteous. But I don’t see why a righteous, covenant-keeping woman has to hearken to (obey) anyone but God. My husband could call me from the office right now and tell me to stop whatever I am doing and go read a chapter of the Book of Mormon. That would be righteous counsel. Would it be right? Do I have to do it? The Lord’s way (or at least the temple’s) says yes.

Taken in the context of the temple, it feels like my loss of agency & lack of a personal relationship with God is a punishment for the original sin of Eve. (Even though Eve was created to be the one to introduce sin into the world so that Adam wouldn’t have to get his hands dirty. So she was kind of doomed from the start.) The Articles of Faith only say that man will be punished for his own sins and not for Adam’s transgression.

Another point I’ve never seen mentioned before… Where on earth is Heavenly Mother in the temple?

Point taken! Personally I would have a problem with that to. I am a stubborn S.O.B. (not saying you are, but I sure am) and hate being commanded. I could see how this could be troubling. If you are rightous, then why the heck should you not harken straight to the Lord? Is not everyone entitled to personal revelation? I explained that point to a Bishop once when he told me they prayed and that my wife was to be the next Primary Secratary. When I told him no, I received a different witness, he was irate. He said things like, great people received this witness, etc… History would dictate my witness was correct, I will not repeat why, those who have read previous posts of mine know what came next shortly after. It wasn’t until it happened that I undersood why I recieved witness contrary to my Bishop’s. I felt guilty for a while, no longer though.

I have a great testimony of my ability to receive personal revelation, as should you as well. It should not be taken from you by culture, no doubt.

I would love to know more about Heavenly Mother also, I am with you. Side note, if you have not, read Joseph Smith’s King Follet Discourse. Anti-LDSs love it because it deals with deep doctrine. I love it becuase it talks about the eternity of the soul and that contrary to mormon culture, Heavenly Mother is not sitting there popping out spirit childern. Though it does not address her directly. Basically our intelligence (soul) is eternal, otherwise if it was not it would have an end. Don’t want to get in to a KF discussion here, but I may start a thread when I get time. Hope I am not opening a huge can of worms on this thread.

[pdigitty]

Quote:

I don’t believe any good comes by trying to raise one group by belittling another. I have known many good and wonderful people, many jerks, many morons, and there have been men and women in all those groups. I have known great women that were “supported” by their husbands, and great men “supported” by their wives. I have known great men that were married to terrible women. I have known great women married to terrible men. I have known great people, both women and men, who were single.

The problem that we have in the LDS community in this regard is in undervaluing women. The answer is not to bring our men down, but to properly treat our women.

I don’t think I was clear enough in my presentation if that’s what you took from it, that’s my fault. My points were very generally and do not apply to all situations. Priesthood leaders in the church cannot be successful without a strong wife who sacrifices much, often more than the male leader does. That is what I was addressing primarily, not the general membership. Do women get enough credit for this? Generally, no. The church would be a bigger mess without strong, intelligent women. There are plenty in the church making incredible contributions.

I completly agree with what you saying, heck I am living it. I am completely supporting my wife emotionally and spiritually as she battles her demons, for years. I also do not propose that anyone be belittled or bring anyone down, I intend only to flip the perspective and see how a man could see a different point of view, does not mean it is correct, it is just another perpective. The basic point being that men and women are equally critical to the plan of salvation. Is LDS culture slanted in its streatment of men and women? I think so. Is the Lord? Absolutley not! Good news is that LDS culture is changing, then LDS policy will follow.

Shoot, the LDS shurch finally after 35 years finally made a final statement about race and the priesthood. I am white, but the priesthood ban was a big problem for me. That statement last month was huge for me. I don’t believe it was quite enough, beacuse many members do not know it exists.

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Joni wrote:

[If my relationship with God is mentioned at any time in the endowment, I haven’t noticed it. (In the old endowment video, at least as I am remembering it, God never once speaks to Eve, only to Adam.

Hi Joni

The lord does actually speak to Eve, but it could be interpreted as only in chastizement. Remember when He asks something like, “Eve, what is this thou hast done?” She then says, the serpent, he beguiled me. I do think that the LDS view of Eve is probably the most positive in the Christian world. Not saying a whole lot though. We generally believe that she is the first to really figure God’s plan out, and Adam was like, uuuuuuhhhhh, oh yeah, right, I knew that.

I can totally see how women could interpret the Temple ceremony as sexist. But also remember you only have to hearken unto you husband as he hearkens unto the Lord. If you do not believe that what he is tell you is of the Lord, then you are under no obligation to obey. So in this way, you have a personal relationship with the Savior. You have a right to your own personal witness outside of your husband’s.

I don’t feel this is to belittle women at all. To me this belittles men, and shows our innate weakness. I’ll explain: When I served in the mission, I discovered one really important thing. The church would completely fall apart without the strong women that support their husband leaders, I mean it would cease to exist! Good women held together the small nacient branches and wards I served in, in Brasil. The men were the figureheads, the women got it done. I think it is true in the United States at the end of the day too. Without holding the priesthood, what worth would men be to women? 😆 😆 (This is what my mom told me growing up, and I think it is funny because it is so true)

Men, left to themselves, are most often no good to the Lord. That is why when he creates man, it is stated that it is not good for him to be alone. This does not mean that God made women as baby factories to bend at their husbands’ whim. Not at all. He made women to help direct and guide men because we cannot do it ourselves. We are worthless without women, far beyond procreation only, that is just the beginning or it. Women are essential to the existence of the gospel because, well, I feel we men would not get much done productive without women. I’d watch sports all day, as would a large percentage of other men. Or some other non-productive activity for personal enjoyment. That’s what I do when the wife an kids are gone. I don’t speak for all men, but a large portion of them.

Personally, I have an extremely positive view of women as I was primarily raised by my mom and sister, 8 years older than me. I hope my comments provide a new prospective to help some deal with what they see as non-equal footing.

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Joni wrote:

ETA: pdiggity, I have to fight back tears as I read your story. Clearly “The Church” does not approve of the way you’ve allocated your financial resources (to the extent of witholding you TR). But everything I believe tells me that The Lord heartily approves. You owe more to your wife, your eternal companion and the mother of your children, than you ever will to the Church’s financial coffers. And when The Church and the Lord are at odds, I tend to side with the higher authority.

Hi Joni,

I appreciate that very much. I have had internal struggle about this issue, but most, outside of TBMs, concur with my decision in this regard. TBMs are not bad people for their opinions on this, I just don’t think they can grasp my situation without my life experiences.

It is still a struggle, because as of October, my wife has relapsed. We had some pretty decent recovery for about 1.5 years. She is not as bad as before, but it is tough. That disease destroys the mind. I wish some many women did not have to suffer from it. It is horrible.

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On Own Now wrote:

I think many here who continue to pay tithing have come to think of it as a commitment between the payer and God, not between the payer and the Church. Thanks for being the kind of person that can see right and act on it. I wish you, your wife, your kids and your mom well.

Totally agree, tithes are between us and the Lord. To me it is very personal.

Our [LDS] culture, in my experience has diminished this somewhat where it is not personal. I have recently chosen to experience the Gospel the way I prayerfully understand it, not the way I have been told to understand it over the years. It has made things better.

Thanks for the kind words and well wishes.

[pdigitty]

I love this discussion! I have my own experiences and thoughts that are in line with most of the thoughts here.

I am a life long member who has begun to question tithing. Not the principle itself, but the church’s application of it. I love tithing and feel it is given to us by the lord for our benefit. Just like every other commandment that is given.

I believe another posted stated their objection to the tying of tithing to the temple recommend. I am with you! Let me explain.

I have paid most of my life a full and honest tithe. 4 years ago, my wife developed anorexia, a very deadly and damaging disease. I dropped everything to help her and to get her the treatment she needed. I have spent more than 50K out of pocket for medical and dental to treat her. She has made some improvement, but the disease persists. It is a nasty disease of the mind that destroys the body and soul. We have 5 kids, and all was relativly well up to that point, and we paid a full tithe.

After having to shell out the 10s of thousands for treatment, I had to stop tithing. The debt came racking up. I was able to curb it with monies that would have been tithes. Still in debt because of it, but with a new higher paying job have been able to start paying it down. Because of the early debt, not enough to put tithing in the budget. Plus I still pay for treatment currently. I got this higher paying job without tithing, but would not that have made a great sacrament story if I was 😆 🙂

Bishop’s questions after telling him I had to stop tithing: Can your wife get a job? (Duh, no she is sick, plus minimum wage would not even pay our tithe, we live in the SF bay area, higher income, but much higher costs) Can you get a second job since you can demand a high wage (uh no, I have an anorexic wife with 5 kids to take care of, I can barely keep my job). Your job furloghed you, you take home a bit less, you tithe can be less now, can you afford that (come on bishop are you serious???).

This to me creates a hugh problem tying tithes to temple blessings. I stayed with my wife, commited to get her well at all costs, but I am not worthy to go to the temple? So if I abandoned my wife and kids (like my dad did I might add and he has a TR) I could afford to tithe so I am worthy now? Or, I could have not convinced her to get treatment becuase that would jepordize tithing. I am worthy now? (She did not want treatment, I convinced her it was necessary, knowing full well the financial commitment) She would have died without treatment. I believe that my actions are some of the most Christlike I have done, don’t get me wrong I am not perfect or holyer than the next man. However, church policy does not agree. No temple blessings for me. Wow,is all I can say. I have given my life to this church, like many, my best early years also.

My mother is sympathetic to me saying that this my decisions are right and valient, more than others she has seen that are allow to keep their TR. She is struggling with this too as she sees my situation. However, my wife’s family says it is becuase we do not tithe! (wow, so that tithing I did while she became ill and while I was paying for treatment in the beginning was not enough for you or the lord for blessings?) I love the tithe and hope I can pay again some day, but yes I completely agree with the sentimates of some that say it should not be tied to the TR.

Also, along with the exact topic of this thread. Totally agree. I would love to never hear another sacrament talk about tithing again, or a GC talk as well. They are totally recycled and tend to use like 5 recyceled positive tithing stories.

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