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Well, we met with the bishop today. It went pretty much as we thought it would. We talked for about an hour. I think we were able to express our view point pretty well. We brought up the points that we felt would present the best case. We were very respectful but we made it clear that we disagreed with him on a few points. Bishop said he would like to see DH do the baptism and the ball is in his court. Bottom line is that bishop doesn’t think DH is worthy at this point.If he can improve his “worthiness” and show his willingness to follow the commandments for the period of time up to the baptism, he implied that DH could do it. We believe DH is worthy in every way. He has a strong faith in God and Jesus Christ. He is devoted to his family. He lives a clean life. But the problem is the bishop is requiring us to pay a full tithing before he will consider DH worthy. And tithing is something DH is not willing to do at this point. I’ll post a question about this in the Doctrine topic because this intro post is getting way too long.
BTW thanks everybody for all the kind thoughts and words of encouragement.
The only reason we are meeting with the bishop at all is to plead our case for DH to be able to baptize our daughter. If it weren’t for her we would stay as far away from the bishop as possible. As for seeking to understand him, DH served as his clerk for two years before his disaffection. We know his personality pretty well. Also, one reason he gave me for refusing to allow DH to baptize our son last year was because of a bad experience between his son-in-law baptizing his grand-daughter after a bad divorce.
We feel like we do understand where the bishop is coming from. I think its important for him to at least hear our point of view before he makes another judgement on our worthiness. Last year all of the anger and bad feelings about the church were running close to the surface. By now we’ve been able to resolve some of those troubling questions and feelings. We hope to present a better case for our family this time around.
bridget_night wrote:You might also mention to your bishop what Jesus said was the greatest commandment: to love! and upon this hang all the other commandments. Joseph Smith taught principles not rules and let the people govern themselves. To Christ its always been the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. Your husband blessing his son would be the most loving thing to do! If the bishop says no, ask him what message he wants to send to your son? I guess pharisees and sadducess are still well and alive in the latter day church as well as it was in the former day church. It takes courage to stand up for the right thing and we are always being forced to learn courage by standing up to intimidating people.
Bridget, I’ve been compiling a list of talking points for my next interview with the bishop. I’m adding your ideas to the list. But I’ll leave out the part about the bishop being a pharisee.
Silent Dawning, thanks for sharing your story. I don’t remember who said this, but I liked this thought. Christ is not here to save us from our problems. He’s here to save us from our sins. I think God expects us to kind of work things out on our own. And sometimes he’s there to help us out. SilentDawning wrote:This situation will get better by degrees but you have to stay connected somehow to the Church and to God. You’ll have to also try to separate your Bishop’s comments from the Church itself. This is hard since we are taught it’s all by inspiration. But guess what — I don’t believe it is always. Leaders are not perfect.
I agree with this. I don’t want to give up on the church. And I’m dealing better with my anger at the bishop. I’d like to distance myself from him, but unfortunately it seems like he’s here to stay and there’s no chance of us moving to a new location. I’m trying to have compassion for his situation. Trying. I’m just hoping to get him to understand our point of view.
Thank you for your concern. I really appreciate all the support and encouragement I’ve received here.
I was really impressed with Packer’s talk as well. If miracles do happen, it was a miracle that DH and I both happened to be in the living room during that Saturday morning session. When we heard that story Elder Packer told we looked at each other with shock because we knew that this might be the piece of ‘evidence’ we needed to convince the bishop to see our point of view. Wow. So many thoughtful comments. I’m honored that each of you would take so much time to offer your insight and encouragement to me. You’ve all given me a lot to think about. We have an interview with the bishop this Sunday to ask permission for DH to baptize our daughter later this year. We don’t expect that he will give permission based on our earlier experiences with him. But we have to try. We owe it to our daughter to do everything we can to try to make it happen.
Maybe higher up church leaders are understanding of Stage 4 Mormons, but from my experience, local leaders and average members think you’ve gone crazy. Just today my best friend felt compelled to make the comment that DH shouldn’t exercise the priesthood if he doesn’t believe its real. I see her point, and she’s certainly not alone in her opinion. I just feel that faith in Jesus Christ should trump faith in Joseph Smith. Unfortunately the only people who agree with me exist only in the cyber world.
Thanks for all your kind words and support. Its nice to hear encouragement. Yesterday at church the GD lesson was on the cycle of apostasy. The question was asked, “How do you begin on the cycle of apostasy?” Answers included criticizing church leaders, wanting to know more, choosing not to follow some of the commandments, etc. I realized I was doing all those things that the teacher was cautioning against and I had ready replies about why its okay to do those things. I chose not to say a word because I don’t want to be labled an apostate. But it sure makes for an uncomfortable place to be when I’m the example of what not to be. I feel I don’t fit in at church anymore. I want to be so sure of my decisions so that I don’t second guess my path when other people criticize it. I’m not to that place yet. I see the value of pursuing both a traditional Mormon path and a more liberal, generally Christian path.
Have any of you managed to become so at peace with your decision to break away from mainstream Mormonism that you don’t feel guilty at church?
I’m very sorry for the losses your family have suffered. Its so difficult to be apart from your loved ones–especially during times of grief. I really loved your thoughts on “encountering” the spirit. That theme is one that I have been thinking about a lot lately.
I’m not sure I have a better term to use than “encounter” or “feel” the spirit, but I’m not sure if either one accurately describe the experience for me. I believe a spiritual experience is more than emotion and it is more than a coincidence like you happen to encounter a friend on the street. I believe a person’s mind and heart have to be open/humble/receptive at the same moment when a particular truth is presented to us. When those two variables are in sync a spiritual experience occurs. That is what I have found in my own life.
I have had strong spiritual experiences related to the traditional testimony builders about the church, but I’ve also had really great spiritual experiences from other sources. Reading great fiction is one way I’ve felt it. “Christy” is one of the most spiritual books I have ever read. I have also felt it listening to songs on the radio, for example REO Speedwagon’s “Keep on Loving You.” I have also had great spiritual moments with my kids hiking up a mountain in the desert.
I loved the comments about how there is an element of the divine within us. Are we not all children of God and endowed with a measure of His Glory? It stands to reason then, that all of us could produce some divine truth as well as be receptive to it.
