[pickles]

Of course I can’t deny physical difference, but what I don’t see is any reasonable evidence that we are spiritually different.

[pickles]

cwald wrote:

I don’t really think it is fair to compare racial segregation with gender segregation. Seriously, the only difference between a black guy and a white guy is the amount pigment in his skin. The difference between males and females is the entire biochemical makeup of the creatures. They are made differently down to the cellular level in the DNA, the code of life. Life is chemistry. Males and females have different chemistry.

I think it is completely fair. Race and gender are both physical differences. Males and females have different chemistry, so what? Why should chemistry matter in the grand scheme of things? Different skin pigment is different chemistry. Since I don’t think all males are clones, they will have differences in their DNA. If a person is depressed and has different brain chemistry should they be segregated? How about we are all just humans. There is a large variation in chemistry among the whole lot of us. I think if you are worried only about chemistry I think you need to look at a bigger picture.

cwald wrote:

Another thought on this. I don’t let my daughter go stay with friends where there are boys of similar age living, and I don’t let my boys go stay with friends where there are girls of similar age living. For obvious reasons, I think. Am I being unfair?

Of coarse you are not being unfair. They are your children so you make the decisions about what is best for them. Above everything else I believe in an individuals right to make decisions about their life. As a parent you get use your judgement about what is right or wrong for your childen. I’m not attacking anyone’s choices. I just think everyone should have more options in life.

[pickles]

Brian Johnston wrote:

I’ve had two daughters in Girls Scouts. They did all those kinds of things.

I think I just had some bad luck for the most part. But it still doesn’t make it feel all right to me. If racial segregation isn’t ok, why should gender segregation be alright? If African Americans were sent to their own scouting program it wouldn’t be acceptable even if it was exactly the same.

[pickles]

It seems to me that there is plenty of evidence that god isn’t perfect. Why did he make us so screwed up? If he is perfect and has so much power why can’t he make us perfect from the beginning? Sure sin gives us the opportunity to learn, but if we started out perfect too there would be nothing left to learn.

Brown wrote:

You become a literal god and you decide to make a planet and plan of salvation for your heavenly offspring. How do you know what to do?

Some how this just still seems to dovetail in with the non-lds belief that most of us are capable of effecting how our world works. It seems like a baby step to learning how to use the powers you will have as a god.

[pickles]

cwald wrote:

I also like to go out and spend time drinking and visiting WITH JUST THE BOYS sometimes to. Guys need time and activities to be alone and talk and cuss to one another about life without the pheromones distracting and getting in our way. I think women have the same needs – time with the girls, and I don’t fault the church one bit that they have separate programs for guys and girls.

I do realise that a lot of people feel this way. However, not all men or women have these same needs. I don’t find this necessary and neither does my husband. I respect that other people need to do things differently.

This gets a little tiring. I always am the one who doesn’t match everyone else. I spend my whole life conceding, standing one the outside, watching everyone else do what they want. It’s really draining to have to participate in a reality that wasn’t made for me.

[pickles]

cwald wrote:

Wow Pickles – you really shot down my attempt at being positive. I’m not use to trying to defend the church, but thought a little positive approach might be in order. My bad.

I really wasn’t trying to put down your positive approach. Like I said I am grateful for the same things. I do spend time at least trying to see the good that there already is. I don’t see anything wrong with the way you said it. It’s just the other folks out there that ONLY see the positive side of things and refuse to acknowledge that more could be done. It came out harsher than I meant.

cwald wrote:

Such as, if we have father/son camp out, the next one should be a father/daughter camp out.

What I’m afraid of is them sending the father/sons camping and then saying the mothers and daughters should sit in a house and knit something. Then they just call the whole then equal.

[pickles]

cwald wrote:

after all, at least my wife and kids aren’t having to navigate the culture of the middle east where women are pretty well still treated like property in many countries.

Sometime I feel like people use this as a excuse. Like, why should it be any better? Isn’t this good enough? I am very grateful that I have the freedoms that I have but I don’t think that is a reason to stop working towards more equality.

cwald wrote:

3. That we sponsor boyscouts, but not girlscouts.

I my opinion girl scouts sucked. Some girls really like it, I’m sure. But this is what started all my gender issues. I don’t see why I was restricted to certain recreation because of my gender. In one of the other treads someone commented about how women are not interested in certain things. I think this is mostly do to what is socially acceptable and exposure. Camping, shooting, archery, kayaking, these are all things for boys apparently. In all my years of girl scouts, I only went camping once and rarely did anything outdoors. There are coed groups that do these things and it works fine but I don’t see the Church going that way anytime soon and it makes me sad. I’m just glad that I don’t have kids.

cwald wrote:

4. That we expect females to wear dresses or skirts, rather than slacks or dress pants.

Expect all they want. I wear pants.

cwald wrote:

3. Females speaking in church

4. Females praying in SM

I really don’t know how things are different in other areas. I guess I should feel grateful that these things happen in my ward.

[pickles]

1. 25% of the time happy. 50% of the time it is just acceptable.

The type of lifestyle that makes me happy isn’t really possible in the modern world. I guess I just figure if I give church a try maybe I can find another acceptable lifestyle.

[pickles]

I can understand how traditions keep things from changing too fast. That seems like mostly a good thing unless your one of the ones that wishes the tradition would hurry up and change. I can’t speak from experience about Church traditions. In general I feel like traditions in society put huge limits on my life and who I can be. I guess my problem has a lot more to do with gender roles. But gender roles are just another tradition I think. I guess it depends on how broad your definition of tradition is.

In the case of Behappy, his problem is with a tradition that excludes one gender. Things like this keep me awake at night hating the world. I don’t like to think of myself as a feminist because some times they seem to go to far the other way. I’m still angry at experiences from my childhood that I can’t get over, but should. Some people think that excluding a few girls from a camping trip is no big deal. I think that when you are young, these small things make a huge impact on who you are as an adult. I had similar things happen to me and I never forgot them. They made a huge impact. The things that changed who I am were tiny moments that would seem insignificant to any adult.

Whenever I see something happening at church I always wonder how is it shaping the children who are watching.

[pickles]

I use to think in black and white(or rather all or nothing). Then I realize that there is really limitless possibilities in between. Just like doug and cwald I realized just how little I really know. I don’t know anything. The things I thought I really knew were just opinions that I was really really attached to. I’m still really attached to alot of my opinions. The difference is now I think I could be wrong.

My opinion at the moment is that JS really saw something. I think what that really was is impossible to know. I think the church is all built upon JS interpretation of what he saw. What would happen if someone else saw the same exact thing? I think that if 10 different people saw what he saw there would be 10 different interpretations.

What if the things the church asks us to do are really for good reasons but not the ones they say? I think there could be a lot of misunderstanding that happened over time.

Peaceandjoy wrote:

They teach good morals and to be good and kind people. But so do other churches.

My town has a lot of grocery stores, but when its time to go shopping I have to pick one. I think other churches do the same thing but I don’t think that is a negative thing.

[pickles]

When I get home I feel like I’m going to fall on my face. I didn’t think 3 hours of sitting could make a person so tired. I thought I was the only one that came home drained.

[pickles]

Maybe women feel more inclined to lurk?

For me it takes a lot of effort to put my thoughts into words. When I get upset about something I think about posting and usually just the idea that I could write about it here makes me feel a little better. But I don’t think this has anything to do with the fact that I’m female.

[pickles]

Wow, I am sorry that happened to your daughter. I can’t believe that happened at a church activity. But then again I kind of can. Growing up it always seemed like I was treated the worst by the kids the claimed to be Christian. Maybe these kids are so well controlled at home that the first chance they get to do something evil they really don’t hold back.

I hope something more is done to these kids. Just making them apologize is probably not enough to stop them from doing it again.

[pickles]

If I was in your shoes I would be pretty mad. Nothing bothers me more than gender issues. I really feel for you. It looks like there is a lot of good advice here and I agree with the suggestions to organise your own camping trip. It sounds like your daughter is very important to you. Don’t let the church get in the way of that. Just do your own thing and let the others do theirs. If your feeling irritated with the church right now maybe you just need a vacation. A couple days camping could really change it. It works for me.

behappy wrote:

I don’t really want to give up teaching and church because I really do enjoy it most of the time. Have any of you lived through a period where everything seems to irritate you with church? Was there anything you did to help yourself move beyond it?

[pickles]

Quote:

The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

What this statement doesn’t say is “the prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord”. That would be a problem. He is just the only one who speak about everything. When you simplify a message so that you can get something said in one sentence its going to get messed up.

Still this bugs me a little but I see it as completely necessary. Here is why. (and this is not going to be a PC reason, your welcome to disagree)

Some people are dumb. Others don’t want to think. So speak at a level the dumbest person in the room will understand.

Most people on this forum are at the opposite end of the spectrum and instead will think about everything and come to their own conclusions. While the non-thinker will take things at face value and follow blindly. (really, I’m not trying to be insulting, honest. This way of living just works for some people and they can be happy doing it. There is nothing wrong with living this way.) So the safest way to say things is always in the form of an absolute. People are not good at “all things in moderation”. For example what would happen if the church says that its ok to drink alcohol every once in a while? Alcoholics would start popping up and people would argue about how much is too much.

What would happen if they changed is to say, “The prophet sometimes speaks for god but he is only human so he is going to make mistakes”? Every time he said something the ones that didn’t like it would say he was mistaken. People would take side and the members would be divide on every issue. People would publicly debate every decision. With the current situation is seems to me most people are going to keep their opinions to themselves. This is what makes the church such a relaxing place to be. This is why I keep my mouth shut in public. This is why I go.

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